Does the typical 'You create your own reality' belief system have an inherent contradiction?

originally posted by: joelr
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

vhb:I can only imagine you have realized you have wasted your time and money. Enlightenment comes from looking 'within' first and foremost (internal) self exploration/understanding. If needing a science component that may help you; read Tom Campbell's book "My Big Toe" or the Theory of Everything.

joelr: Then I feel you have a very limited imagination.If you are aware of some ideas Tom Campbell put forth about science and LOA then feel free to share.

Limited imagination? As I am aware will take that knowledge and hold it close to my chest; not in exact a sharing mode with someone attempting to preempt my knowledge.

joelr: I am familiar with the concepts of enlightenment. There may be certain realizations one can achieve but it's not an automatic know-everything experience

Of course it is; because you yourself drive the experience (its you alone in that conquest of understanding).

joelr: Many people who have spent their lives attaining enlightenment still may have clung to ideas and mythologies that were not literally true. Actually LOA and enlightenment are only distantly related. Enlightenment is about many different things like awakening to compassion, non-duality, change and suffering, self knowledge, enlightened masters do not directly preach LOA.

Why have they failed in the preaching of the esoteric *understanding*; or was the plan to not give the answers in the first place?

originally posted by: joelr
...and now I want to understand if there really is a connection between thoughts and manifestation in a more scientific way.

Trying to understand "in a scientific way" will take you further away from the truth.

It is not a case of "if there is really a connection between thoughts and manifestation". The connection is there. Either you use it or you don't.

I find it telling that you reinforce the word "if" with the word "really"- IF there is REALLY. Your skeptism is your worst enemy. Contrary to what you state, your mind is not open at all.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

Limited imagination? As I am aware will take that knowledge and hold it close to my chest; not in exact a sharing mode with someone attempting to preempt my knowledge.

Yes limited. You just said "I can only imagine you have realized you have wasted your time and money. " If that is all you can imagine then that is quite limited because I did not have that realization. You are placing judgments on me simply because I'm asking questions.

Of course it is; because you yourself drive the experience (its you alone in that conquest of understanding).

Enlightenment obviously brings understanding. But even more obvious is one does not gain all knowledge. There are still mysteries for enlightened people. It's a condition of understanding emotions better, a self knowledge. It's not about understanding all the mysteries of the universe.

Why have they failed in the preaching of the esoteric *understanding*; or was the plan to not give the answers in the first place?

The realizations of different schools of enlightenment sometimes differ a bit but none of them come away with the absolute knowledge that LOA is a literal truth. The people who preach that stuff are people in the movies like The Secret and books like Esther Hicks stuff. It's not related to enlightenment.

originally posted by: crowdedskies

Trying to understand "in a scientific way" will take you further away from the truth.

That sound like ridiculous new age platitudes. Spiritual masters do not reject science, they embrace different types of knowledge. Just like in Ying Yang - one should embrace physical and mental activities. Science and spirituality, it's a thread that runs through many cultures.

It is not a case of "if there is really a connection between thoughts and manifestation". The connection is there. Either you use it or you don't.

So you are a fundamentalist in your beliefs. And you don't know how it works in a scientific way. You could just say that.

I find it telling that you reinforce the word "if" with the word "really"- IF there is REALLY. Your skeptism is your worst enemy. Contrary to what you state, your mind is not open at all.

This is kind of cult-y. The idea that one can't question new age ideas straight out of The Secret without getting called a skeptic and seeing people get judgmental and negative is creepy.
This is no different than Christian fundamentalism.

An open mind does not mean you believe new age concepts and run around showing off how spiritual you are and admonishing anyone who questions your "spirituality".
It means being able to see both sides, recognizing you don't know everything and being ok with it. And definitely not attacking people as close minded because they ask questions. That is "poser" spirituality.

originally posted by: amazing
I'm beginning to think the following:

1. The hardest part is knowing what you really want.
2. The second hardest part is being ready to receive...like I want to travel the world, but I haven't gotten around to filling out our passport papers yet...I'm not ready to receive any international travel at all.
3. Being present in the moment has something to do with it. There is no past, there are no problems, the future isn't even hear yet, plan, prepare and then be present.
4. The next most important aspect after being present is interaction with other people. That's where the magic happens. The opportunities, business partnerships, information from and to you with the other person.
5. Give to receive. The more you give the more you will receive.
6. Law of attraction and creative visualization don't work in a vacuum, they are contingent on giving, being present in the moment and interaction with other people.

How to put all of that into a succinct summary.

A nice exposition on the subject. Point 2 is important but most overlook it. Magic sometimes needs a helping hand (like making a phone call or talking to somebody instead of expecting everything to come from thin air)

Point 5 is yet another misunderstood aspect. Tp open the floodgates , you need to let out what is alrerady in

originally posted by: joelr

So you are a fundamentalist in your beliefs. And you don't know how it works in a scientific way. You could just say that.

It does not work in a scientific way. It is an Art - not a science.

Science has turned its back on things it considers hocus pocus.

Science and Spirituality go in opposite directions. Imagine a circle with both Science and Spirituality at the top of the circumference and starting the journey in opposite direction. At some point they will meet. By then , Science would have embraced the spirituality that it lacks. Due to my unwillingness to wait a thousand years or more, I chose the Spiritual route.

My proof and evidence are the manifestations I bring to myself and others .

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Karma is a wave form because it means action

Is this a new mysticism or a new cult? A "wave form" does not add scientism to your conjecture. I know the classical definitions of karma. I use wave forms when creating music from oscillators

How have you thrown any clarity on the exchange in question....here it is again...

RAPHA: :If a murderer like Hitler does what they do, then they have to experience everything that they caused in their previous lives

MY QUESTION
So how can that work - does he reincarnate to suffer "X" millions of slow and fast deaths - is his Karma extinguished over 1 life time or millions of lifetimes?

Where is this hidden reincarnated Hitler who has given life and abundance to X Millions of sufferers in this new lifetime?
Karma apparently has to be paid even when one ascribes to "inaction" much like the christian concept of sin by omission

"Is Inaction Also Karma"
hinduwebsite.com...

a reply to: joelr

It's certainly not much energy. How do you propose a desire causes a manifestation? What is your link to subjective thoughts and events in space-time? What is your theory?

as an example, you wake up one day and think of a new car design, you then draw it out. The desire of seeing that new design actualized prompted you to draw it. Then you follow the other steps.

What is your link to subjective thoughts and events in space-time?

I've pondered the question for a while and I dont really understand what you're asking. If I understand it correctly the answer is my thoughts create the events.

"space-time" means nothing to me when I manipulate attractors to receive my needs. "space-time" if I understand you correctly is a "place holder" for you to stop someones elses reality from intruding onto your reality that you wish to manifest. When dealing with LOA its counter-intuitive to define the manifestation in or of "space-time"

a reply to: joelr

I've starred your post...I could give you a list of books that have worked for me. But first you have to understand, before you even use the books, is that you not only create your own reality, but you have a higher self connected to the godhood, or universal mind. Until you actively realize who you are, ie not just a stone tossed around by every wave but an initiator or your actions and perceptions, then the books and practises may be of little help. But I will suggest the Master Key by Charles Haanel - free download available

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Im not a christain Scientist fella, barking up the wrong tree. Try meditation everyday for 25 years with very excellent confirmed enlightened beings... the Dalia Lama has asked for their combining and that is all Ive been doing. If it interests you? Research but the absolute best way; is to sit down and quiet the body and mind quieting quieting the 3 kinds of speech. Speech of the body (dont move)... Speech of speech(conceptual) and finally speech of the mind while moving or doing anything (quiessence).

originally posted by: joelroriginally posted by: vethumanbeing

vhb: Limited imagination? As I am aware will take that knowledge and hold it close to my chest; not in exact a sharing mode with someone attempting to preempt my knowledge.

joelr: Yes limited. You just said "I can only imagine you have realized you have wasted your time and money. " If that is all you can imagine then that is quite limited because I did not have that realization. You are placing judgments on me simply because I'm asking questions.

Not a judgement; just an observation.

vhb:
Of course it is; because you yourself drive the experience (its you alone in that conquest of understanding).

joelr: Enlightenment obviously brings understanding. But even more obvious is one does not gain all knowledge. There are still mysteries for enlightened people. It's a condition of understanding emotions better, a self knowledge. It's not about understanding all the mysteries of the universe.

Why not? Why are you setting limitations on self knowledge for others you have not achieved?

joelr: Why have they failed in the preaching of the esoteric *understanding*; or was the plan to not give the answers in the first place?

It is not allowed (this is esoteric) one works for enlightenment as a personal goal not to be given away for free to others. You will never learn your lessons if you pay someone for it; as you do with 'self help books'.

joelr: The realizations of different schools of enlightenment sometimes differ a bit but none of them come away with the absolute knowledge that LOA is a literal truth. The people who preach that stuff are people in the movies like The Secret and books like Esther Hicks stuff. It's not related to enlightenment.

No idea who Esther is? Gnostics do not preach (its against the rules). Enlightenment comes from looking within yourself/purpose/beingness.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: joelr

I've starred your post...I could give you a list of books that have worked for me. But first you have to understand, before you even use the books, is that you not only create your own reality, but you have a higher self connected to the godhood, or universal mind. Until you actively realize who you are, ie not just a stone tossed around by every wave but an initiator or your actions and perceptions, then the books and practises may be of little help. But I will suggest the Master Key by Charles Haanel - free download available

You mean your 'higher self' lead you to this information?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Stoned on experience as ones own when simply a shared concept of being once again... setting oneself up as an idol... others doing that? Not yet arrived at the one... ignoring the zero of all pervading space? Half of everything.

Combine the two and the whole thing starts again. When it all is just a perpetual motion machine changing form. I is matter 0 is being add them in various ways? And all you experience is lay out before you.

Emptiness is form and not form, matter is form with concept there is emptiness, without form there is potential for matter.

vimeo.com...

originally posted by: crowdedskies


It does not work in a scientific way. It is an Art - not a science.

It works in a scientific way or it's not real. All art can be explained by a science-like explanation. Painting uses ink and paper, materials made of molecules. Same with sculpture. Music uses sound waves, usually waves using certain ratios of vibration, 1/2 for the octave, 1/4 for the 5th and so on. And certain overtones give different instruments different tone.
The creativity is more complex and involves psychology and neuro science and if consciousness is connected to a higher self then this may be part of creativity also.

LOA would have a scientific explanation also, if real. We may not know the science yet but that doesn't mean it can never be known.
Thoughts would have to somehow reach out and influence reality somehow. There would be some type of interaction involved. Many LOA people do actually get into physical explanations, they don't seem to agree with your idea of science and spirituality being so separate. They talk about thought being energy and vibration, which makes some sense. But what energy and how would that work they don't say.

Science has turned its back on things it considers hocus pocus.

Science isn't a person. It isn't all one thing or one opinion. What anti-science new age people conveniently forget, or never bother to learn is that most hocus pocus has been studied over the decades. ESP, ghosts, prayer, random number generating being influenced by consciousness, remote viewing and many other ESP type abilities. There has been huge amounts of research and studies. The military also did a lot with remote viewing and similar stuff.

It just never really works so people stop testing it. Then new age people pretend like science ignores it. I used to search through that stuff all the time.

Science and Spirituality go in opposite directions. Imagine a circle with both Science and Spirituality at the top of the circumference and starting the journey in opposite direction. At some point they will meet. By then , Science would have embraced the spirituality that it lacks. Due to my unwillingness to wait a thousand years or more, I chose the Spiritual route.

My proof and evidence are the manifestations I bring to myself and others .

Then pick some object and manifest it into my experience.


So you do think that science and spirituality will meet? Then you do think that thinks like LOA will have a scientific explanation?
Although LOA is not related to spirituality at all. It's just a metaphysics concept. One is not "spiritual" because they sit around trying to visualize things into reality.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight



I've pondered the question for a while and I dont really understand what you're asking. If I understand it correctly the answer is my thoughts create the events.

Right but how? How do thoughts interact with reality and shape events?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: joelr

I've starred your post...I could give you a list of books that have worked for me. But first you have to understand, before you even use the books, is that you not only create your own reality, but you have a higher self connected to the godhood, or universal mind. Until you actively realize who you are, ie not just a stone tossed around by every wave but an initiator or your actions and perceptions, then the books and practises may be of little help. But I will suggest the Master Key by Charles Haanel - free download available

The Master Key says stuff like:
The ability of the individual to think is his ability to act on the Universal and bring it into manifestation. Human consciousness consists only in the ability of man to think. Mind in itself is believed to be a subtle form of static energy, from which arises the activities called ‘thought,’ which is the dynamic phase of mind. Mind is static energy, thought is dynamic energy - the two phases of the same thing. Thought is therefore the vibratory force formed by converting static mind into dynamic mind.


He's trying real hard to put a science explanation to manifesting, not just here but other places as well. But it's really vague and nonsensical. Mind is not static energy, static is an imbalance of charges. Dynamic energy isn't even a thing?
Thought is a vibratory force? He's making stuff up here.

Here is where he tries to really explain the science of manifesting:

"The law is that Thought is an active vital form of dynamic energy which has the power to correlate with its object and bring it out of the invisible substance from which all things are created into the visible or objective world. This is the law by which, and through which all things come into manifestation; it is the Master Key by which you are admitted into the Secret Place of the Most High and are "given dominion over all things." With an understanding of this law you may "decree a thing and it shall be established unto thee."

Whatever "active vital form of dynamic energy " is supposed to mean I don't know. But it sounds made up.
Active and dynamic are not forms of energy and the whole thing sounds sketchy.

I asked you before, what would be different between the energy from a negative thought and a positive thought?
If one thought of health, how would that energy contain thoughts of health. Energy is just energy, you said that also.
It doesn't contain thoughts? The whole thing sounds silly and makes me doubt the entire concept.

If he said "We currently don't know exactly how thoughts manifest into reality but I'm confident they do" that would have been a start. But instead he's BS-ing with fancy words to fool non-science people.

He doesn't source his material either. Where did he get his information? It's ok to explain where one gets their philosophical ideas. When someone gives sourced material they usually source it to show they are not just making stuff up. What's the point of believing some guy's model of reality when he doesn't explain where he got his ideas?
He did study metaphysics but he was also a businessman. Why is he considered an authority on reality?
Why do so many people assume his model is correct?

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

Not a judgement; just an observation.

No. An observation is a fact. Like "this is an internet forum".
You said you could only imagine I felt like I wasted my money after reading new age books.
That is as judge-y as a judgment can get.

Why not? Why are you setting limitations on self knowledge for others you have not achieved?

Enlightenment is about realizations about the self, not about getting better SAT scores. Spirituality doesn't mean one should live in some magic fantasy land. LOA is not spirituality at all.
Manifesting a dream house has nothing to do with exploring spirituality.

a reply to: joelr

If you want philosophy try Shopenhauer... however, be aware his bias towards women became a stumbling block on his path trying to follow another and another etc that words cannot give as they are... like saying: where am I going? And the person that knows just points... they cannot be with you during the entire journey... We begin alone and end alone and carry on in the middle. Yet we can sit alone but we have all directions loaded on top of our heads... as we sit and meditate, we start unloading our burdens. So the unload can be anywhere at any time... Like the feeling of needing to poop.

Much of what you speak of in dogmatic technical terms is a burden of concept lost in translation to many.

What is the difference in function between, a duvet, blanket, comforter, quilt, or bed spread? All have different names and forms... But serve the exact same function as a rectangular piece of matter to cover. The choice of what to cover means free will beyond function... find something that matter fills and there's a new function for it.

So rote concepts are essentially empty in name and form and the function of all matter equals whatever function one gives it suited to a need. This births all invention and concepts.

So there is no need to keep adding conceptual burden upon burden, allowing oneself to have no peace of mind or peace on earth attached to such things, in the name of personal greed, that breeds hate, then control trying to maintain something impermanent in nature... to do so is ignorance that leads to all delusion of a self that is ever lasting and important.

When one dies, all one does is drop the memory burden... but the matter of waves as one clings to the shell immediately seeks another form to persist. Some waves we put out come back to us life after life. Such as hate for people in wars in the present one did not fight... one hates it but they don't why they hate it and start looking for fingers to point where to go get revenge.

That just keeps it all spinning as a burden, that allows no one any rest. Like a resonance that cannot be harnessed without a form to perpetuate those intentions which are a form of a wave.

There is a light that we can turn on and off and change the colors of using mental energy. Yup a real thing.

So we have a body that carries out intentions and inattention consciously and subconsciously, grossly with form and subtly with thought form. Beyond those two actions there is action to the intention or not, there is speech to convey them our not. The non reaction to either is neutral to the entire process.

That neutral zone can move freely when not attached to any thing unless there is an intention to do either positive or negative with a resolve. Choosing a resolve positive accumulates positive energy, choosing resolve for negative accumulates negative energy. Choosing neither leaves one in a state of rectification of energy for balance, or resolution to solve a problem.

This occurs in 3 places at once, body... speech, and mind. Once fully realized? It becomes all pervading space or the 4th dimension beyond all the other 3.

That was just a pointing. Ah ha! Etc? Means it filled a gap in knowledge... more gaps a pieces to fill those gaps... But first look into the conceptual cup and see what out is filled with, respect the energy that put it there, then empty it... cup being the mind that holds all burdens present, past, limiting the future.

That's all until the cup itself is no longer needed. One can choose to remain and fill cups, help empty them, or wash them... or set the cup down never to return as anyone could conceive existing having so gone.

a reply to: joelr

How do thoughts interact with reality and shape events?

Reread the top of my response...

a reply to: joelr

What's the point of believing some guy's model of reality when he doesn't explain where he got his ideas?
He did study metaphysics but he was also a businessman. Why is he considered an authority on reality?
Why do so many people assume his model is correct?

Maybe because it worked for them as well...I really dont think you came here to entertain any "new ideas", I suspect no matter what we may say you'll knock it. I dont speak for Charles Haanel....take up the definitions with him

I know some of this LOA works, thats all I say for now