Paul vs Jesus, Christianity vs Judaism

a reply to: Othello420

Yahweh means "HE IS" I don't know who told you that nonsense. It ain't true. Yahweh is a Jewish fairy tale, the only God is El Elyon or Most High God, or just El. Deuteronomy, in properly translated bibles, even has Yahweh as a Son of God or El. Yahweh gets translated as Lord, but if you back translate Lord you get Baal. Yahweh is based on Baal.

Points well intended but not covered completely. Yes, El is the Most High God of the Hebrew faith.

Before the birth of Jesus, Moses had no concept of a Creator other than El. As far as the Hebrew religion was concerned, El was the Creator and heaven was His abode.

Then came Jesus upon the scene with His doctrine of being the begotten of El. Not a creation, but the actual substance of life and the image of the invisible El. John relates this as follows.

John 1:1-5
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This doctrine of Jesus taught the Apostle John that before Jesus was born, He preexisted in the heavenly abode as "The Word." "The Word" being the visibility of El who is total spirit. According to this doctrine it was "The Word" who made all that was made in this creation and being El's only begotten He came to His own creation as the man Jesus.

So in effect Jesus the man did not create but Jesus before He became man and was "The Word" did create. Now if Jesus is the Creator for His Father EL, then Jesus is Yahusha or Yahweh or Lord etc. (among many other names.) El is not the Creator but your Yahweh is the Creator of this creation that we now see.

But with all that said it is clear in scripture that as Jesus exited this creation and resumed His heavenly abode as "The Word", He is still subservient to El Elyon or the most supreme of Gods. This is shown as He departed this world in the following.

John_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

As is believed by those who accept this doctrine, Jesus is gone forever but His name remains for our understanding. This is why it is said that there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved. Jesus the man is now "The Word" or visibility of El in the celestial realm. So in this doctrine El is the most high and "The Word" is Yahweh the Creator.

a reply to: chr0naut

Saulus was the reason why nearly all of the major voices left of the Nazarean movement ended in circus to be eaten alive, while he himself ran away to Spain and was later supposedly killed by unknown assassins a few years later. Probably by his own, the Pharicees, or the whole the Sanhedrin— and Rome. Apparently he was an asset that knew too much.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: thegimprider

Christianity is not hostile to the Torah. The Torah explains the reasons for Jesus' incarnation and sacrifice. The Torah is at the basis of Christianity.

Paul was a devout Benjamite Jew. He several times mentions that scripture (which, when he wrote it, was ONLY the Law & Prophets - i.e: the Old Testament), was valid and 'God breathed' (as you noted).

The four gospels make up 48% of the New Testament. Paul's contributions (if he was actually the author of all of them), only 20%. Those who identify Paul as having a different message than the rest of the New Testament have probably not studied the other four fifths of it.

The Hebrew Bible in the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls versions (which were both from before Christ's incarnation) mention explicitly the virgin birth and the sacrifice of the Messiah for the healing and forgiveness of sins of others.

The Masoretic version of the Hebrew Bible (which was written well after Christ) translates the meanings of some words alternately, so as be less obviously pointing out Jesus as the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies (this also makes the alternately translated sections fairly mundane and pointless, too).

Similarly, the Church has a monastic and academic thread that has chosen to preserve ancient texts, not destroy them. Even those that are contrary to its belief like Gnostic or Masoretic texts (the Masoretic text was the primary source for the Old Testament in the King James translation).

The Jewish faith is monotheistic as Christian faith is monotheistic. Christian doctrine is that the God of the Old testament, the one and the only God, is the same God that Jesus is part of. There is no 'other God', there is no pantheon of gods. The God of the Jews IS the God of the Christians.

2,000 years of criticism of Christianity from the greatest minds and academics have failed to raise any unequivocal and valid point that demolishes its basis. Perhaps you might consider things from the long perspective before your next post.

I am glad someone understands. At least to a point. The torah (the Law) is not contrary to Christians. In fact is not contrary to any religion except for maybe modern day Satanism. However it is NOT jewish and never was. Jews adopted them as they did most of Sumerian history as their own, even if they were not even born yet. Adam, the one associated with Christianity, all forms, was born quite late. There were plenty of other humans around before. The one issue that is beyond confusing is that they confuse Adam the spirit of humanity, called various things, with the earthly one they think actually existed.
same
The problem with the confusion is that leaves you vulnerable to thinking everything earthly is divine and divine is earthly which is backwards. Red is not green and green not red. Each have their own scientific properties apart from what people believe.

Now about 'Paul", actually Saul. The modern day "Paul" came from an epithet 'pal--meaning protector, a twin to the name and epithet "Alexander", or 'alexandros'. There were many Pal's, and like the modern meaning of the word with the same spelling, they helped out their buddies, or pals. These were usually bodyguards or advisors, in fact Peter was one, according a source I read. He was more than that though. He was the rock, the bedrock, which would protect, as a Pal, from distortion, which is why Paul had to argue then fight with, then kill Peter to change the actual message his own flesh and blood taught.

Even the Bible shows you are way off base, because the Jews were NOT worshiping the same god as the Pharisees and the Sauducees were speaking of in their temples and they taught to their congregant. The OT says one thing and Jesus say the same thing, but it does not mean the teachers would follow the example, quite the contrary. In order to build up prestige, like today, priests and pastors teach whatever the hell they want. The fact is even early Jews started out Polytheistic, like in Egypt, which has its own meaning btw; only the fact of leaving Egypt stopped that practice. Polytheistic gods are like symbols of the unconscious, pieces of the True God, but without them the whole meaning is lost, as it explains the irrational behavior of both god and man at the time. It shows that whatever we may understand about the One God, there is a filter of lesser beings in the way, being a pain in the neck.

In fact, Gnostic belief is NOT counter to the actual Torah nor the Church, and yet the Catholic Church still trolls almost everybody. The whole ecumenical movement trying to unify Christ with Jesus Christ and the Mahdi and Jesus Christ and leaving the antichrist nameless. Those Neo-Gnostic asses try to claim that Jesus Christ is Lucifer's son withoput also mentioning the fact that (according to ancient Gnostic belief) a) Jesus Christ is a namesake of the real Christ; b) that guy's father is the 'flesh and blood' [its not really flesh] of the historical Devil who repented to the actual thing most Christians call "God" but is actually above even that title.

This shows me that YOU 'might consider things from the long perspective before your next post,' as well as know your history a lot better before speaking up again.

originally posted by: MetatronTheAeon

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: thegimprider

... snip ...

Firstly, you state that the Torah is not Jewish & never was. It is entirely Jewish by traditional attribution, by academic theory or its own admission. Your statement about the Sumerians indicates that you may only be talking about the first few chapters of Genesis, which does have similarity to Sumerian texts. Those chapters also mention genealogies and may other details NOT mentioned at all by the Sumerian texts. A study of the dating of the specific Sumerian texts and the traditional time of Moses indicates that they existed at about the same time. Moses and his people were enslaved in Egypt at the time and could not have access to Sumerian beliefs. From that, we may assume that the Torah and the Sumerian texts describe different accounts of the same event. They didn't and couldn't have 'borrowed' details from each other.

The Torah describes Adam as a human and a direct creation of God (just like all animals and matter). There were no other humans prior to Adam in the Torah. If you do not accept that the Torah account is factual, then stop referring to it to try and prove your point.

Paul was a historically verified person. He was called Saul until his conversion. The New Testament documents his conversion and travels. There is not the slightest inference in the New Testament, history or in traditional stories that there were several Paul's. Paul NEVER urged anyone to fight with and kill Peter. If you have some proof or reference that contradicts this, then please provide it. I'm sure you have no such evidence.

I'll agree that the Jews strayed from their true God several times. They worshiped the Baals, Astarte, Molech, Dagon, Asherah and all manner of 'gods' through their history. The God of the Pharisees & Sadducees (who were Jewish denominations) was the God of creation, the God of Abraham and the God of Moses (YHWH Elohim).

Jesus biggest condemnations with the Pharisees and Sadducees was that they were overly legalist, status seeking and not compassionate. Jesus never suggested that they worshiped the wrong God, nor did Jesus ever state that Jesus' God was different from YHWH Elohim.

You seem to think that polytheism can merge into monotheism. It cannot. Belief in a single God mandates that all other god concepts and deities are false, a figment of the imagination. This is most exemplified where Elijah demands proof of the existence of the Baals at Mount Carmel, asking for them to call down fire on an unlit altar. The priests of Baal got nothing for their prayers, songs, dances and self mutilation. Elijah, however, got YHWH Elohim to blast His altar with so much fire that the stones melted!

Gnostic belief IS counter to the Torah and to the New Testament. Just is. Look up the definitions of each belief on Wikipedia if you don't believe me. They are vastly and significantly different. Gnostic belief is heresy.

As for Jesus the Christ not being "the real Christ" or being Lucifer's son, that is so much woo-woo there I can hardly believe you'd suggest anything so daft. I challenge you to provide the slightest substantive detail for that nonsense.

If Lucifer has repented, then all that prophecy about his eventual demise, that is spread throughout the Bible, would then be invalid. But trying to invalidate the Bible would be your goal, wouldn't it?

Paul is hostile to the Torah when preaching to the goyim because the goyim wanted nothing to do with Yahweh or the Law.

I would respect what he did if Yeshua didn't already do it without lying and if he wasn't so hostile to the apostles behind their backs and calling them Judaizers.

Even James the Zaddik who was not a follower of Yeshua because he was one of the hard core apocalyptic Yahwistic Zaddikim was willing to relent and accept all into the Way as it came to be called. Righteousness was the Way and James made an enemy of Paul for teaching contrary to Yeshua when he summoned him to prove himself and Paul was humiliated that he was forced to submit to James authority.

He is a different man after the book of acts. He appoints himself apostle and declares the apostles seem like pillars but are not and added nothing to him.

He tells the story of a confrontation with Peter which is only his version if it ever happened at all. Peter doesn't seem to remember it in the letters attributed to him that I doubt he really wrote unless Paul was a two face liar and Peter got played. He is said to have died in Rome during a time Paul was in the city and all accounts of Paul's death are spurious and unlikely to be real while Peter's is church legend believed to be accurate.

Paul likely lived out his days in the Empire protected by his citizenship and for a job well done in usurping the new movement rendering it leaderless and in disarray. The different factions that would spring up throughout the empire were a result of the times with Greeks in Egypt and Judea mixing the wisdom of the vast areas they had once conquered and the Romans love of Mithras were all syncretized by the authors of the new testament who created an esoteric story for the elite and a story for the uneducated peasants requiring faith only.

But the students of the mystery schools would find the familiar concept of rebirth in baptism and the likewise familiar death and resurrection . The myth of Christ became so popular because here was a God who would die for their sins who had a Father in heaven that could only be reached through belief that he died for the sins of the world and was resurrected.

It wasn't until King James that Europe finally got to read the scriptures and now people could compare the scriptures with what the priests taught.

What a shock it is to read the bible and see how much of a monster Jehovah is. And how much of a liar Paul is. And how much the churches have lied about both so nobody realizes the true message of Christ.

That we can be spiritually born while still in the flesh and attain the knowledge of our own divine heritage with the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

The old testament is the story of evil. The new is the knowledge of a God that is good who can not be understood, but like Jesus we can be born again and ressurected when the Spirit blesses us with the knowledge that Jehovah is not both good and evil and omniscient. He is deceit and lies and wrath and misery. His law of obey or die is evil. He is not the Almighty or the Most High or the Eternal One. He has human emotions and behaves like a monarch with absolute power.

Die to the idea that we are trapped in sin and can't be righteous no matter how much we try. That only Jehovah's mercy can save us. We are not made to worship a god who is guilty of atrocities.

Knowledge and Wisdom come from the Holy Spirit andwhene Eternal Creator is unknowable but knowing that he exists and that our spirit is eternal if we awaken it and that is when you receive the Holy Spirit.

Jehovah and Paul are both evil. James and Jesus and the apostles are the Way. Pauls way is called "that way.". Follow the way.

It comes down to being able to recognize evil and most can't see the evil of both Paul and Jehovah so they live the life of spiritual s lavery.

originally posted by: SilentSage
Paul is hostile to the Torah when preaching to the goyim because the goyim wanted nothing to do with Yahweh or the Law.

I would respect what he did if Yeshua didn't already do it without lying and if he wasn't so hostile to the apostles behind their backs and calling them Judaizers.

Even James the Zaddik who was not a follower of Yeshua because he was one of the hard core apocalyptic Yahwistic Zaddikim was willing to relent and accept all into the Way as it came to be called. Righteousness was the Way and James made an enemy of Paul for teaching contrary to Yeshua when he summoned him to prove himself and Paul was humiliated that he was forced to submit to James authority.

He is a different man after the book of acts. He appoints himself apostle and declares the apostles seem like pillars but are not and added nothing to him.

He tells the story of a confrontation with Peter which is only his version if it ever happened at all. Peter doesn't seem to remember it in the letters attributed to him that I doubt he really wrote unless Paul was a two face liar and Peter got played. He is said to have died in Rome during a time Paul was in the city and all accounts of Paul's death are spurious and unlikely to be real while Peter's is church legend believed to be accurate.

Paul likely lived out his days in the Empire protected by his citizenship and for a job well done in usurping the new movement rendering it leaderless and in disarray. The different factions that would spring up throughout the empire were a result of the times with Greeks in Egypt and Judea mixing the wisdom of the vast areas they had once conquered and the Romans love of Mithras were all syncretized by the authors of the new testament who created an esoteric story for the elite and a story for the uneducated peasants requiring faith only.

But the students of the mystery schools would find the familiar concept of rebirth in baptism and the likewise familiar death and resurrection . The myth of Christ became so popular because here was a God who would die for their sins who had a Father in heaven that could only be reached through belief that he died for the sins of the world and was resurrected.

It wasn't until King James that Europe finally got to read the scriptures and now people could compare the scriptures with what the priests taught.

What a shock it is to read the bible and see how much of a monster Jehovah is. And how much of a liar Paul is. And how much the churches have lied about both so nobody realizes the true message of Christ.

That we can be spiritually born while still in the flesh and attain the knowledge of our own divine heritage with the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

The old testament is the story of evil. The new is the knowledge of a God that is good who can not be understood, but like Jesus we can be born again and ressurected when the Spirit blesses us with the knowledge that Jehovah is not both good and evil and omniscient. He is deceit and lies and wrath and misery. His law of obey or die is evil. He is not the Almighty or the Most High or the Eternal One. He has human emotions and behaves like a monarch with absolute power.

Die to the idea that we are trapped in sin and can't be righteous no matter how much we try. That only Jehovah's mercy can save us. We are not made to worship a god who is guilty of atrocities.

Knowledge and Wisdom come from the Holy Spirit andwhene Eternal Creator is unknowable but knowing that he exists and that our spirit is eternal if we awaken it and that is when you receive the Holy Spirit.

Jehovah and Paul are both evil. James and Jesus and the apostles are the Way. Pauls way is called "that way.". Follow the way.

It comes down to being able to recognize evil and most can't see the evil of both Paul and Jehovah so they live the life of spiritual s lavery.

That was one of the best, dead on posts I've read regarding this subject. I am new here, but wanted to give you a thumbs up for what you wrote. When the spirit blew me away over 20 years ago (not in a church....just home alone, asking to know truth and Jesus), I read my Bible like crazy. Paul never sat right with me, but after joining a church I had it drilled into me that the Bible was the "inerrant word of God". I should have trusted the spirit showing me the truth. It took 20 years of "churchianity" to get a belly full and after hearing another Romans 13 sermon at the last church I attended, I finally got the huevos to actually trust my gut and start investigating my doubts on Paul. Boy, was I shocked to find out I wasn't the only person who saw through him. That was 3 1/2 years ago. Then, last year I started to really see that there were "two" voices in the Bible. One was the voice of love and the One I'd come to know intimately. The other was plain evil. I realized that not only the NT was corrupted due to Paul's epistles.....but the OT was, as well....with the Father of Jesus speaking, and the voice of YHVH (who was just plain evil). I love animals and never could understand why a God that put that in my heart (to rescue them and take care of them), would ask for them to be sacrificed on an altar....not to mention all the other atrocities he commanded. Anyway, there's much more I've realized....and it's been hard. Most of my friends are completely caught up in "church" and "Pauline Chistianity". I've tried showing them, but only one person I know has started to see it, too. She decided to dig on her own (though we butted heads at first over this). A year of only reading her Bible thoroughly, has shown her the inconsistancies and contradictions, which led her to dig out other sources aside from scripture. So, those who truly want the TRUTH will find it.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Awesome I only figured it out last year but it wasn't until after I baptized myself and took a year and dedicated it to scripture.

It was like a year of revelations as I look back at my notes and see that I noticed quickly that after acts Paul starts making rules and boasting and I must have googled Paul false apostle, and I have been studying the bible like crazy trying to make sense of it.

So if you go to Matthew 24 Jesus predicts Paul coming and says to the disciples essentially, you have been warned. They listen but nobody reads acts right they see Paul as the hero because he abolishes the Law of God and grace becomes his selling point, through faith. And they deny that he does this showing how they have been deceived without knowing it.

I have been reading the Nag Hammadi scriptures and they don't use his name but his doctrine of grace and his character are referenced many times as deception and other negative terms. Even though two fictitious works about Paul are in the NHL, they are not a historical Paul and are small and insignificant with none of his doctrine.

I do believe that the so called Gnostics rejected Paul and Yahweh and did there own thing seeking wisdom, knowledge and spiritual freedom. All the things I do today without rejecting the concept of a benevolent Spirit called God. I just realized he is unknowable and religion is mythology taken too far. Using it for control was a result of the Roman Empire but before that they were just ethical teachings .

But it takes astuteness to realize what more people are waking up to everyday and the more I read both the NHL and Dead Sea Scrolls the more I see what happened. I think the Zaddikim got their apocalypse that they were predicting but lost. The teacher of righteousness was James who was murdered by a man named Saul according to Josephus and I think it is a clue too. Paul might be the lying spouter of the Damascus document.

I'm rambling anyway thanks for the compliment.

originally posted by: SilentSage
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Awesome I only figured it out last year but it wasn't until after I baptized myself and took a year and dedicated it to scripture.

It was like a year of revelations as I look back at my notes and see that I noticed quickly that after acts Paul starts making rules and boasting and I must have googled Paul false apostle, and I have been studying the bible like crazy trying to make sense of it.

So if you go to Matthew 24 Jesus predicts Paul coming and says to the disciples essentially, you have been warned. They listen but nobody reads acts right they see Paul as the hero because he abolishes the Law of God and grace becomes his selling point, through faith. And they deny that he does this showing how they have been deceived without knowing it.

I have been reading the Nag Hammadi scriptures and they don't use his name but his doctrine of grace and his character are referenced many times as deception and other negative terms. Even though two fictitious works about Paul are in the NHL, they are not a historical Paul and are small and insignificant with none of his doctrine.

I do believe that the so called Gnostics rejected Paul and Yahweh and did there own thing seeking wisdom, knowledge and spiritual freedom. All the things I do today without rejecting the concept of a benevolent Spirit called God. I just realized he is unknowable and religion is mythology taken too far. Using it for control was a result of the Roman Empire but before that they were just ethical teachings .

But it takes astuteness to realize what more people are waking up to everyday and the more I read both the NHL and Dead Sea Scrolls the more I see what happened. I think the Zaddikim got their apocalypse that they were predicting but lost. The teacher of righteousness was James who was murdered by a man named Saul according to Josephus and I think it is a clue too. Paul might be the lying spouter of the Damascus document.

I'm rambling anyway thanks for the compliment.

I ramble, too...a lot, lol. I've spent two decades researching my rear end off....from everything from nephilim, the ufo phenomena, to just about every conspiracy out there. I truly loved God (the biblical one). But, over the past 4 years I've gotten discouraged, discombobulated, and just downright disgusted with so much I used to hold dear. It's not that I disbelieve in a "God" anymore...I just have had real issues with all the pain and suffering in this world (and that includes the animals). I went vegetarian last year (long story there), but suffice it to say, that once I realized Paul was a shyster, I turned to the Torah. I decided to do the feasts (since most Christian holidays are pagan anyway). I did the Passover last year (by myself). I just wanted to honor my Father. Well, He sure got a message through to me that day in April. I had a little dachshund who freaked out over the smell of lamb cooking. I mean, really freaked out. He wouldn't even come in the house. He was shaking from head to toe and barking at our home from the yard.
Anyway, that and several other things during that time that were teaching me something (by the true spirit)....made me realize that the true creator, NEVER wanted us to hurt animals. I have always rescued and cared for all animals. But, I ate them. I just never made a connection. Through different things, that Good being showed me that hurting others (whether human or not) was not something He/She/It wanted. So, I just stopped eating them. I didn't want to participate in the killing anymore. I just extended Jesus' "the merciful will obtain mercy" to all sentient beings. I felt better. But, I felt really sad, too. It's hard to see how things are so messed up in this world, yet still try to exist in it.
Paul being a liar is nothing compared to YHVH being the demiurge....which is where I'm leaning now. The whole "blood sacrifice" (of animals and Jesus) are total Babylonian BS. Jesus came to show us the true Creator's heart and character. Paul just took YHVH's BS and carried it over in to the NT. The Bible is so corrupted. I do believer there are good things and glimpses of the truth there. I don't believe it's the "inerrant word of God" anymore. If anything, it's a mixture of truth and lie. Which would explain all the divisions you see out there, not only in Christadom...but in all the Abrahamic religions.
There's much more that I could say, but it's late and I need to sleep. I'm just glad others see all this, too.
Take care Silent Sage,
MS

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Well said. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth and never fails the seeker of Wisdom. What the church called Gnostics, and everyone assumes that means secret knowledge, really was just people who decided that the god of Israel is evil and that the true God is unknowable.

So they dedicated themselves to learning and wisdom and righteousness as a way of trying to understand life.

That is all we can do is learn and use our intuition and ask the Spirit when you need answers. Never fails.

Silent Sage,
Just have to say....you are speaking to my heart. I've read your other threads and you are so in touch with the truth.
Do you know what I've realized...the "Christians" on here are the most obnoxious and blind to even seeing any of these things. Makes one wonder why? I think that blind faith produces just that..blindness. I was that exact way 10 years ago, so I can see it clearly. Makes me sick to my stomach that I was that judgmental. I will no longer listen to the voice that tells me to judge others. It's ugly. It also makes one feel very lonely. I go outside and hang with my goats, chickens, dogs, cats, listen to the birds and watch the butterflies, and think.....you guy's have no clue. I'm not beneath a man, nor do I need to be subservient. I love my savior who loved women and treated them equally. I love that my creator (the creator isn't a misnogynist, nor an animal sacrificer, nor a god who commits genocide. Yea, I think I'll stick with the gnostic version. Makes way more sense.

Oh, and to any Christians out there who want to argue...don't bother. I have dug deep. You should, too.