After Gender change what new comes in Medicine? Trans Specie Surgery or Hormonal treatment?

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Annee

I don't think so, as a matter of fact the decision of Mrs Katrine Jenner to want to date a man is clearly showing that Mr Bruce Jenner was along an entire life a repressed Homosexual.

It is not necessary to be a great specialist to see that this person is trying to 'change' gender just because he never found the nerve to live with another man as a man, so his subconscious mind feels that it is more socially accepted to perform as a woman.

If I were to base my entire opinion of the transgender condition on conservative blogs, Caitlyn Jenner, and 19th century research, I might agree with you.

But I don't. I don't even know where to begin if you are the type of person who will not take anything seriously if it is written by actual experts and authorities in the field so I won't. I've seen this discussion before with people who refuse to acknowledge there is more to humans than they were raised to believe: it always ends with the person discounting absolutely every official stance with accusations of whatever sort of conspiracy they can dream up.

So, again, I won't bother. Just know that your understanding of the subject is so severely outdated and runs counter so plainly to what is actually known on the subject that you cannot be taken seriously.

It is a pity because your grasp on gender pressures, while not related at all to the biological causes of gender dysphoria, are actually a bit sophisticated.

originally posted by: Morrad
a reply to: Annee

That is the UK. In the USA - - it is not discriminatory to decline the wording or special decorations for a cake.

From what I remember, the gay cake saga happened in Ireland. The baker refused to decorate the cake with "Support Gay Marriage" or something similar. The cake was not for an individual but the baker was charged with discrimination. I remember being quite surprised at the time it was initially reported.

It is discriminatory to refuse to bake a cake, using standard design/decoration that has been used/offered to heterosexual couples.

I agree.

Oh, OK.

None of my Pro Marriage Equality poster "buddies" agreed with forcing someone to write or decorate a cake in a way that was offensive to them.

There has been a couple cases here in the US. The baker won.

That's totally different then baking a cake with standard decorations.

Wow! This is all over the place!

originally posted by: The angel of light

I don't think so, as a matter of fact the decision of Mrs Katrine Jenner to want to date a man is clearly showing that Mr Bruce Jenner was along an entire life a repressed Homosexual.

It is not necessary to be a great specialist to see that this person is trying to 'change' gender just because he never found the nerve to live with another man as a man, so his subconscious mind feels that it is more socially accepted to perform as a woman.

First off, it is Caitlyn not Katrine, Ms., Miss or Mx, not Mrs. and her not his. Are you intentionally being disrespectful?

You follow this closely enough to know to know Caitlyn Jenner's dating preferences and sexual orientation? That's pretty funny! Your pop psychology, "not a great specialist", theory of "repressed homosexuality" and social acceptance is also quite amusing but also misplaced and further indication that you don't have a clue about the nature of being transgender or transsexual. In this age of information, ignorance is a choice.

A Basic Transgender FAQ

American Psychological Assoc. - What does transgender mean?

GLAAD - Transgender FAQ

Understanding Transgender People FAQ

World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH)
The ultimate scientific and medical authority - Download and read the SOC (Standards of Care).

That is the real problem here, the obsession in the theories that are now so popular in the Western civilization to claim that sexuality is an arena on which there are only to fundamental and unique roles to perform: male or female. Whoever defies that status quo is under so much pressure that thinks it is easier to adapt himself to the society instead to ask for the reformation of social norms that are clearly wrong, or obsolete, based on the fixation that we are still living in the Eden paradise where Eve was created for Adam or the contrary and that's all.

No, the "popular theory" is that gender is a spectrum and non-binary. Identities such as genderqueer, gender fluid, gender expansive, bi-gender, gender non-conforming and so on are all the rage with youth rejecting your binary cis-centric societal norms. Although there is some correlation or overlap between gender and sexuality, they are not the same thing.

So really now, is it easier and more socially acceptable to be gay than it is to be transgender or transsexual (trans*) and transition, especially in the public eye?

Can you imagine what is going to happen in this world if everybody reproduces and starts families with children in the rate we have seen along the XX century? we have right now twice the population of the 1960s and in that decade the humanity was four times the population of the ending of XIX century.

The terrible wars and economic crisis of the XX and XXI century are showing clearly that no social or economic or political model is able to guarantee productivity good enough to support the growing rates of population of a demographic explosion.

What? This sounds like an argument that there should be more non-reproducing homosexual and trans* people? Since this is ATS, are you sure there isn't something being put in the water or media programming to make people this way in the name of de-population, the NWO or Agenda 21? I have no idea what point you are trying to make but methinks you're in a bit over your head on this subject?

a reply to: Freija
Dear Freija,

Please don't make me laugh, you are asking me to tell Miss to a person that is right now 66 years old, has been married before and also has already procreated sons and daughters?

His or Her own descendants, because although she claim to be legally a woman she also legally fathered them long time ago, are right now in age to form their own families if they want, and you are asking me to call her in the same way an adolescent girl or maiden must be referred to?

Please open your eyes and move your eye lips you are dreaming awake.

Please I am sure you didn't like my post, but you are falling in the non sense in order to try to attack my point.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Freija
Dear Freija,

Please don't make me laugh, you are asking me to tell Miss to a person that is right now 66 years old, has been married before and also has already procreated sons and daughters?

Please I am sure you didn't like my post, but you are falling in the non sense in order to try to attack my point.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

Lots of people have been married, remarried, and procreated.

Your point?

None of that has anything to do with gender dysphoria.

a reply to: Annee

Dear Annee,

If you are unable to understand my point here after so many inconsistences I have showed exist in your argument trying to defend a so twisted version of civil rights, I sincerely think that it does not even payoff to spent more time in addition to all what it has been already fully explained to you.

I am very open to debate ideas, but given that there is a minimal of reasoning in the discussion, I am not going to try to talk with people that is bringing arguments that are clearly moving in two opposite directions at the same time.

It is absurd or insane to support massive sterilization of youngsters, via transgender or also transpecie hormonal treatments or surgery, to later claim that they are also trying to advocate for their reproductive rights?

What are you talking about? first you support the butchers that kill their gonads, with their own apparent approval, to later claim that they still have right to have families?

Any physician knows that when a person is willing to harm himself or herself it is a clear signal of mental disorder, a flag of something very wrong happening in the mind.

Pardon me if this sounds ironic, but it is quiet contradictory such a position, only in an upside down logic it is possible to make appear crystalline such a very visible double moral.

Again this is a very perverted sense of medicine, I am sure it even violates all what ethical principles that the great masters founders of that science Galen, Hippocrates, Al-Ruhawi, Al-Zahrawi, considered ethical in such profession.

Hippocrates: from Epidemics, Book I, Ch. 2:' Wherever a doctor cannot do good, he must be kept from doing harm'....
'Though many are doctors in name, few are in reality, particularly on the surgical side'.

Al-Ruhawi: from Adab-Al-Tabib(("Practical Ethics of the Physician"): 'True physicians are guardians of souls and bodies'....'Encourages respectful for the physician in patients and visitors, even He can overrule a patient's wishes when it is necessary for their health to do so'.

Galen: from "The Best Physician is Also a Philosopher": 'The physician must be trained in all branches
of philosophy, and particularly in logic, which is the science of how to think. Logic will help the physician to use deduction and reach conclusions in medical research. Physics, on the other hand, is the science of
what is, the knowledge of the Nature in the widest sense, and Ethics is the science of what to do; its ideals are self-control, scorn for material wealth, for the weaknesses of the flesh, and finally to live a hardworking life.'.

Al-Zahrawi, from Al Tasrif: 'Do not embark upon anything unless you have positive knowledge of giving the patient a good outcome......Let caution be stronger than your greed and desire for gain'

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Annee

It is absurd or insane to support massive sterilization of youngsters, via transgender or also transpecie hormonal treatments or surgery, to later claim that they are also trying to advocate for their reproductive rights?

What are you talking about? first you support the butchers that kill their gonads, with their own apparent approval, to later claim that they still have right to have families?

Any physician knows that when a person is willing to harm himself or herself it is a clear signal of mental disorder, a flag of something very wrong happening in the mind.

You are entitled to your personal opinions/beliefs. But, that's all they are --- they are without knowledge.

Knowledge links have been provided in this thread. You close your mind to them

Willful ignorance ---- to instead ---- hang tightly to personal opinion/belief ----- without knowledge.

originally posted by: The angel of light


Any physician knows that when a person is willing to harm himself or herself it is a clear signal of mental disorder, a flag of something very wrong happening in the mind.

How about a whole bunch of physicians who are experts in mental health?

Adolescents seeking gender-affirming treatment have been found to have healthy
psychological functioning. Slight elevations in anxiety, mood, and behavioral problems have
been found in a subgroup of gender diverse and transgender youth, with some cases of selfharm,
suicidality, PTSD, substance abuse, and body image issues. This incidence has been
attributed to external factors such as peer bullying, family distress, parental rejection, trauma,
abuse history, harassment, inadequate housing, legal problems, lack of financial support,
educational problems, co-occurring psychiatric problems, and body dissatisfaction, rather than
gender diversity in and of itself.

Attempts to force gender diverse and transgender youth
to change their behavior to fit into social norms may traumatize the
youth and stifle their development into healthy adults.

Early medical intervention is recommended for peri-pubertal
transgender youth who have a history of gender dysphoria and
a desire to live as another gender. Puberty delaying treatment,
cross sex hormone treatment, and/or surgical intervention(s) may
be indicated to treat gender dysphoria. Similar to psychological
interventions, these treatments are provided on an individualized
basis to meet the needs of the youth.

www.apadivisions.org...

If this medical language is too complicated for you, let me simplify it:

The experts in mental health do not consider gender dysphoria itself to be a mental illness.

The experts in mental health feel that trying to force someone with gender dysphoria to "suck it up and live against their gender identity" could cause mental illness in someone who didn't have mental illness to begin with.

The experts in mental health feel that it is better to start earlier rather than later if the young person has been diagnosed with gender disorder, with appropriate treatment, which includes puberty blockers, sex hormones, and/or surgical treatment.

In other words, you don't know what you are talking about.

Can those hormones be dangerous? I wouldn't say that it shouldn't be done at a young age, but I wouldn't do it if I were a physician. I'd be afraid of making a mistake or prescribing some hormone/treatment that could cause brain tumors or cancer or cardiovascular problems. I guess that's why there are specialists.

Gender as a spectrum: more or less.

However, Cisgender pride is not bigotry. There's nothing wrong with manliness. Real men don't bully people. I have seen really bigoted gay people be extremely rude to me, though. I wanted to get a drink, and I had no car, so I rode the bus to the nearest bar, which wasn't technically a gay bar, but was in a really gay area. I went to order a couple of shots of Jagermeister, and I got a lot of dirty looks and some people rolled their eyes because I didn't look like belonged there. Eventually, I got served at the bar, and I tipped minimally due to being ignored so long. I sang a couple of songs at karaoke, and sat at the bus stop until sunrise to go back home.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Annee


I am very open to debate ideas, but given that there is a minimal of reasoning in the discussion, I am not going to try to talk with people that is bringing arguments that are clearly moving in two opposite directions at the same time.

It is absurd or insane to support massive sterilization of youngsters, via transgender or also transpecie hormonal treatments or surgery, to later claim that they are also trying to advocate for their reproductive rights?

What are you talking about? first you support the butchers that kill their gonads, with their own apparent approval, to later claim that they still have right to have families?

Any physician knows that when a person is willing to harm himself or herself it is a clear signal of mental disorder, a flag of something very wrong happening in the mind.

Modern medicine acknowledges that gender dysphoria is a real thing.

www.racgp.org.au...

Background
Gender dysphoria is the distress or discomfort that may occur when a person’s biological sex and gender identity do not align. The true prevalence of gender dysphoria is unknown in Australia because of varying definitions, different cultural norms and paucity of data. Individuals who identify as transgender are vulnerable, and have higher rates of discrimination, depression and suicidality, compared with the general population.

Objective
The aim of this article is to familiarise general practitioners (GPs) with the principles of transgender care so they may provide a safe and supportive environment for patients presenting with concerns.

Discussion
It is important to have a basic understanding of how to conduct an initial consultation of gender dysphoria even if it is an uncommon presentation in general practice. Management should be individualised and may involve a combination of social work, education, counselling, hormone therapy and surgery.

You do not in fact appear to be open to any ideas or opinions unless they support your own.

If you stopped being so disingenuous and actually read some medical papers on the subject instead of simply masquerading opinion as fact, you may actually come to some understanding on what gender dysphoria is.

This thread is simply a thinly veiled attack on those with gender dysphoria rather than any attempt to engage in a valid dialogue.

As social norms go off the rails and tech advances I'm sure more people will want to be interspecies. Calling people idiots and delusional is what is keeping this in check. whether or not that is right or wrong I can't really say.

I couldn't understand what's it like to be trans or intersex nor understand what it is like to be interspecies.

I do not have that brain.

I would think trans people would support interspecies people though.

I will not support nor condemn interspecies I do not however wish to be associated with that. It is not the same thing at all in my eyes and is in fact "the line" for me if one must be drawn. I'm sorry to say but I do firmly stand on that but so long as the person doesn't think they are a tiger and going around biting and trying to eat people I will not berate or even acknowledge them. I will simply raise my eyebrow and keep on walking.


a reply to: jellyrev

originally posted by: jellyrev

I couldn't understand what's it like to be trans or intersex nor understand what it is like to be interspecies.

I do not have that brain.

I would think trans people would support interspecies people though.

I support the brain has more to do with who we are ---- then was thought or known in past time. I personally have no problem with the anomaly that the brain tells someone they are inter-species. We've learned the world is not gender/sexual black and white. I am hetero BTW.

However, this thread is dishonest and deceitful. It was not meant to educate, or be informative ---- but, to slam.

It's awesome that posters knowledgeable on this subject have kept it real.

a reply to: The angel of light

some people are just off their rocker and no other explanation

hey im a rich man in a poor mans body. give me money!

transformation success

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

The Problem RainbowPhoenix is that when something that is wrong begins and we decided to turn our back to it possibly it is true that many people finds easier to just raise their eyebrowns and continue walking, but in the long run that opens possibilities to allow that more wrong things happen in at future, and there is no guaranty that none of them are not going to damage you or somebody you really care of.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
”

If we allow that people with None scruples at all, that only want to profit economically or to get votes from the people that has problems of gender identification can continue making it, we were going by sure to see more anti-ethical behavior in the future in the medical profession. This is precisely what is occurring with the new Idea of to transform humans in animals.

This is clearly a problem of self image, any psychologist and many psychiatrists can tell you that. It is nothing else than to have the wrong self image in the mind. So this is a problem of psychological structures, there is nothing wrong in the bodies of those poor patients that are suffering this Gender dysphoria problem, but it has been classified along more than a century as a form of abnormal psychology.

Now, somebody comes with new theories, somebody is trying to revolve all what Science has learnt along thousands of years dealing with this issues and it is instead of offering a real solution to it proposing to damage a body and not do nothing to try to heal a damaged mind, that is absolutely unacceptable in a professional of medicine.


Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

Why am I not surprised?

Denny Burk: Professor of Biblical Studies at Boyce College, the undergraduate school of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY.

Life Site News:

The Religious Right website LifeSiteNews today published an essay from Obianuju Ekeocha of Culture of Life Africa praising Uganda’s brutal Anti-Homosexuality Bill and urging other countries to adopt similar measures. She said that the “courageous” supporters of the draconian bill rightly resisted the “totalitarian commitment to the hegemonic homosexual agenda.” The courageous Ugandan MP's have chosen to please God instead of men (or women!). And they have chosen to protect their citizens from the corrosive effects of moral decadence and unrestrained sexual lisence [sic]. They have voted their Christian values. www.rightwingwatch.org...

More from Denny Burk. (extremism at its finest)

Women in the military.

“God help us,” lamented Denny Burk of the Southern Baptist Convention, who seemed to suggest that women shouldn’t be in the armed forces at all:

Are the fortunes of women in our country really enhanced by sending them to be ground up in the discipline of a combat unit and possibly to be killed or maimed in war? Is there a father in America who would under any circumstance risk having his daughter shot or killed in battle? Is there a single husband in this country who thinks it okay for his wife to risk being captured by our enemies? To risk becoming a prisoner of war? Is this the kind of people we want to be? Perhaps this is the kind of people we already are. I would sooner cut off my arm than allow such a thing with my own wife and daughters. Why would I ever support allowing someone else’s to do the same? Why would anyone?

What kind of a society puts its women on the front lines to risk what only men should be called on to risk? In countries ravaged by war, we consider it a tragedy when the battle comes to the backyards of women and children. Why would we thrust our own wives and daughters into that horror? My own instinct is to keep them as far from it as possible. Perhaps this move makes sense with an all volunteer force, but what if the draft is ever reinstituted? Are we really going to be the kind of people who press our wives and daughters to fight in combat?
- See more at: www.rightwingwatch.org...

Just Say No to Gay Christian

Today, Denny Burk, an associate professor of New Testament at Boyce College - which is the undergraduate arm of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary - endorses a similar approach by writing in The Baptist Press that Christians ought to stop using the phrase "gay Christian":

First, the phrase designates an unbiblical identity. Christians are new creations. They are those who have died with Christ and whose lives are hidden with Christ in God (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:19-20; Colossians 3:3). Our primary identity, therefore, is not any sin but Christ. For this reason, Christians never speak of "lying Christians," "adulterer Christians," "fornicating Christians," "murderer Christians," or "thieving Christians" -- even though we know sadly that Christians are capable of all kinds of sins. It's unseemly to create labels that define Christians by sins from which they actively and self-consciously seek deliverance. We can be honest about our sin without speaking of it as if it were our identity. The phrase gay Christian creates an identity category that we would not accept for any other sin.

- See more at: www.rightwingwatch.org...

a reply to: lSkrewloosel

Dear lSKrewloolsel:

It is not true that all the physicians right now support this way of thinking, many are against it, and they classify Gender dysphoria as part of the issues with wrong or inexistent gender Self Image, check just some references to confirm it.

John Hopkins Head Psychiatrist Dr. Paul McHugh : "policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered" by not treating transgender "confusions ... as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention."

www.lifesitenews.com...

John Hopkins Head Psychiatrist Dr. Paul McHugh : "When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned."

www.dennyburk.com...

"More recent studies have found that circumstance and repeated activities such as meditation modify brain structures in a process called brain plasticity or neuroplasticity. In May 2014, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported that for fathers, parenting "rewires the male brain"

The previous quote that claims guided meditation or clinical hypnosis can rewire the altered psychological structures, and so to restore the normal chemistry to the area of the brain compromised, is supported in the following research:

Eyal Abraham, Talma Hendler, Irit Shapira-Lichter, Yaniv Kanat-Maymon, Orna Zagoory-Sharon, and Ruth Feldman (May 2014). "Father's brain is sensitive to childcare experiences". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 111 (27): 9792–9797. doi:10.1073/pnas.1402569111.

Hence it is not true that the modern medicine agree all together in to transform a person from his or her natural gender to another artificial appearance that looks as something that it is not after all. A transgender turned in to the opposite gender using surgery or hormones therapy will never be able to perform as a natural person of that gender, because its gens are not the corresponding ones, chromosomes can't be changed.

Whoever claims that the only therapy that medicine can offer to you to really fix a Gender dysphoria is to make up your natural gender through a kind of monstrous Frankestein experiment is lying, that is not true at all. Think in how much that "Professional" is going to profit of such treatment just to realize what are his or her truly motivations with respect to you.

There is also a serious British school of Psychology that is offering a solution to Gender dysphoria based on Hypnosis with very high rates of success.

Eric Fraser, UK D.Hypn. :"According to a report by the Gender Research and Education Society it is thought that about 20 in every 100,000 people here in the UK suffers from gender identity issues. It is estimated that just over half of those suffering seek full gender reassignment surgery. This can be a lengthy and expensive process and so it can be worthwhile exploring your feelings in therapy before ever embarking on surgical interventions.

thehypnotherapyworks.net...

Clinical Hypnosis does not represent any danger for a patient, applied by professional clinical hypnotherapists can provide a real solution to a problem, not just a costly and artificial make up.

It is decidedly criminal to misinform a person that is having a mental disorder to exploit it economically knowing that this youngster soon or later is going to find by itself that instead to solve an issue it messed up his or her entire life for ever, destroying his own body, altering the natural chemistry of it by living the rest of her or his life depending entirely on medication and eliminating all possibility to have a family of his or her own blood at future.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

in the long run that opens possibilities to allow that more wrong things happen in at future, and there is no guaranty that none of them are not going to damage you or somebody you really care of.

Are you scared? I'm not.

or to get votes from the people that has problems of gender identification

Interesting as I am as you say not at peace in my assigned gender and I know better than to even waste my time and leave the house to vote for any of these turds we have up for election at any point. Turds all of them I don't care if they speak in favor of me and mine but I'll take some compassion and charity where given.

It is not true that all the physicians right now support this way of thinking, many are against it, check just some references to confirm it.

Its people like this that would seek to do me further harm by putting me on drugs I do not wish to take or commit me to an asylum when I am a perfectly sane,reasonable and productive member of society. They would destroy me as a human being by ignoring my consciousness, self awareness, dignity and my identity. They would impose their will upon me despite my being of sound enough mind to scream and resist all while they force drugs down my mouth. These are the types of solutions you would like to see instead of letting me live my life happily minding my own God damned business aren't they?

A transgender turned in to the opposite gender using surgery or hormones therapy will never be able to perform as a natural person of that gender

I don't think my man would agree with you here, he would tell you that I function as a woman just fine. That includes stereotypically feminine activities such as cooking and cleaning and not because I feel like I have to as a woman. I do those things of my own God given free will (which you seem to have little regard for) because in the relationship I am the nurturer, domestic care taker (while owning my own business) and most importantly because I am the WOMAN.

a reply to: Annee

Yep, there are religious zealots in the medical field too - claiming all it takes is a little "meditation" (i.e. prayer) to get rid of the gay or the gender dysphoria. Religious charlatans is all they are.

Not surprising at all.

a reply to: Annee

I sincerely don't know with whom are you confusing me, or what is your problem to discuss all the theories and just not only the ones you know about Gender dysphoria and support the industry of Gender make up.

Anybody can see that you are coming now with a visibly off topic discussion, after all no body here has expressed at all any discriminatory statements against Homosexuals, at least that is not my point of view. I am not afraid of to have diversity, I am concerned that somebody use the word diversity to excuse and even hide an antiethical practice in medicine.

I am not against people that decide to love people of their own gender, not necessarily. I may not be totally agree with all what can be the sexuality that some of them practice, especially concerning practices that are against hygiene, but many homosexuals are even cleaner than a lot of heterosexuals in their sexual life.

I clearly has said that transsexuals can decide by themselves if they want to live a homosexual or heterosexual life, but without risking their life in a Gender makeup transformation that is not going to solve nothing for them. I certainly have pointed that many transgenders have a potential homosexuality and that is true.

"Mutilating the body's internal sex organs and external genitalia does not change a person's sex.
“In the eyes of the law, sex, like race, is and must be immutable and fixed at birth.”11
In 1960, Johns Hopkins was the first U.S. medical facility involved in sex reassignment
procedures. The program was discontinued in 1979 after Dr. Jon Meyer published his long-term
follow-up report of adult transsexuals treated at Johns Hopkins. None of the post-operatives
showed measurable improvement in their lives. "Sex re-assignment surgery confers no objective
advantage …" Meyer concluded.

Pls check:

Q&A on Gender Identity Confusion

There is to much political rhetoric on these days of to depict this issue as black or white, like if there would be only just two confronted opposite positions on it, to be fanatic of the political LGBT movement or enemy of it.

Well, that is not real or absolutely valid, there are many people like me, that we reject the idea to enroll in any of those two fundamentalist groups, we resist to be manipulated in this war in between traditional sexual moralists and its corresponding anti moralists.

I am pretty sure we that think independently are actually in essence expressing what truly in a society ruled by ethical principles the word diversity might means in our society: pluralism of opinions.

Let us Science do its job: to find an objective true, beyond personal considerations, and put Politics in spheres where populism is the norm, we can't accept something as valid or true just because it is politically convenient, that is not scientific at all.

If I brought the quote of NieMoller was not since I feel religiously identified with him, but because his was a remarkable and courageous reaction about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and the subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group.

We are living times of the tyranny of the Populism, the idea that something is true or ethical if more people supports it, or highly convenient for the economic establishment, that is a perverted and distorted way to understand democracy, it is against the rights of minorities, it can kill true diversity or civil rights.

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness