One question about LaVoy Finicum shooting

originally posted by: Kali74
Someone of the bunch had to not surrender, had to be willing to die and he was zealot enough to do it. It just took him a few seconds to override his survival instinct. They're all batsht crazy but if the "movement" wasn't going to down in a blaze of jokes... one of them had to be willing to die.

I disagree. Throughout the whole standoff, never did the occupiers show rudeness, hostility, act in a threatening way, so no... they weren't bat# crazy. They were peaceful protesters who happened to be armed patriots and therefore, a problem!

From the blog:

Throughout the three-week standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, these so-called “militia” men, or “armed terrorists,” as the media has repeatedly labeled them, they never appeared to be hostile, rude, belligerent, threatening or disrespectful towards the law enforcement personnel they spoke with. Over and over again you see them, dressed as casual folks, having normal and peaceful conversations with law enforcement and the media.

It was the media, under the guidance of law enforcement, to claim they were militia, armed terrorists, anti-government and threatening in any way, when in fact, only one of the men, Ryan Payne, was an admitted militia member out of the five arrested when LaVoy Finicum was killed.

Read the full blog at MinneapolisWeekly.com

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Sublimecraft

I agree. To state a man with 11 children was suicidal is a stretch of the imagination. If anything, he died with the motive of saving the people in the truck.

“There are things more important than your life — and freedom is one of them. I’m prepared to defend freedom.”

Yes, LaVoy said he would die for his freedom and defend it, but I think he meant that he would fight to the death if need be if the Feds raided the refuge while they were occupying. I don't think he meant to get in a gun fight out on the side of the highway when they already had the drop on him. He was surrendering... in the hopes to live and fight another day!

originally posted by: Rezlooper
This points out the obvious question... if LaVoy Finicum wanted a shootout with LEO in the first place, why would he have come out with hands up in surrender.

If you believe the FBI released video of the LaVoy Finicum shooting on January 26, you believe that Finicum jumped out of the vehicle after he hit the snowbank with his hands up and then, after a moment, reached for his gun, at which time, law enforcement shot and killed him.

This is the claim made by law enforcement and they released a video from an FBI helicopter on January 28 that shows he did indeed reach down. But, there remains one unanswered question to this whole event.

MinneapolisWeekly.com

It comes down to a simple question. If he ever intended to go for his weapon, why would he come out with hands up rather than have the gun out already before he even exited the vehicle? Once he came out with hands up, law enforcement had the drop on him and going for the weapon made no sense, unless you wanted to die. Witnesses in the vehicle said he was enraged with law enforcement. A man who is pissed off is thinking about giving them a piece of his mind, not his life.

This whole thing appeared to be an ambush right from the start. They were expecting quite the shoot out. Why was there an Oregon state trooper hiding that far up in the trees away from the road.

Throughout the standoff these guys never showed any hostility, aggression, rudeness or threatening behavior towards law enforcement. They were peaceful and they had regular conversations, especially LaVoy, where they seemed like average folks with an issue and wanted attention on that issue.

I don't care if he drove away and tried to run, it doesn't mean he deserved a death sentence, which is exactly what this was. IMO, it looks like he reached down after he was shot, probably in the abdominal area. In the video, you can't tell if he was grabbing for his gun, but like the question above... why wouldn't he come out of the vehicle with gun-a-blazing already if he had any intentions other than surrender?

Good one, but I still think he was reaching for "something".

a reply to: openedeyesandears

Yeah, a stinging, burning sensation, probably just below the rib cage.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Necrobile

Good take on it Nec. He may have been attempting to draw attention away from the truck. We don't know and as you say we are left with pure speculation.
My speculation is that he jumped from the truck so quickly so as to head for the hills, to try and get away.(he had already demonstrated this mindset by pulling away from the first road block). Then he saw the 'post' that LEO had placed out there in the tree line and he turned around and saw the other guy advancing and his rational brain just fried and his 'my gun will save me brain' kicked in automatically and he reached for it.

Never once in your theory do you mention the fact that his hands were raised in the air. How does that play into this. He got out to run for the woods and decided to run with his hands in the air?

originally posted by: Blueracer
Where are the body cam videos and the video footage from the police vehicles? Those videos would help to clear things up.

Funny how those didn't get released so quickly by the FBI. Probably because the helicopter video can made to seem like he was reaching for his gun, but body cam and dash cams are going to show a completely different story, and I'm sure videos with audio will be further damning when you hear the hale of gunfire versus one trooper firing one shot.

If Finicum intended to "fight it out", he would have taken cover using the vehicle as a shield, not run out with his hands up.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: schuyler

How do you know he made a tidy living from these kids?

It's about $8,000 a month in payments according to what I read.

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Rezlooper


So, there were no officers behind their vehicles in the road block? They all went and hid up in the woods?

Since you're trying to be a snarky little #

Just you calling someone that is being snarky, to say the least.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: Kali74
Someone of the bunch had to not surrender, had to be willing to die and he was zealot enough to do it. It just took him a few seconds to override his survival instinct. They're all batsht crazy but if the "movement" wasn't going to down in a blaze of jokes... one of them had to be willing to die.

I think it is a little too early for slander, wouldn't you say?

Are you trying to make me pee myself with that level of irony?

Lookout everyone, the PC police have arrived!

Slander!? Really... SLANDER????

WTF did I say that was slander? That they're batsht crazy? That's slander?

Oh my word!

So called Constitutionalists, whom, don't understand one word of the United States Constitution... trying to take over Federal Land, illegally (See Article Four, section 3, clause 2 of the United States Constitution, part of the original document and upheld repeatedly over decades upon decades by the US Supreme Court for it's only interpretation and the only way it has ever been implemented.), stating the whole damn time that they would die before giving up. That's not batsht crazy to you?

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Rezlooper


So, there were no officers behind their vehicles in the road block? They all went and hid up in the woods?

Since you're trying to be a snarky little #

Just you calling someone that is being snarky, to say the least.

[instead of answering the question]

Don't butcher the quote. Yes I'm snarky, but I'm also not accusing people of performing an execution because I lack an understanding of tactical positioning.

a reply to: jaws1975

I'm not Progressive but often agree with them. As if that's enough to dismiss anything I said. Were they batsht crazy or not? There's obviously plenty of Conservatives who agree they were crazy or are they not Conservatives anymore because you disagree with the assessment that these Federal Land invaders were crazy?

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Rezlooper


So, there were no officers behind their vehicles in the road block? They all went and hid up in the woods?

Since you're trying to be a snarky little #

Just you calling someone that is being snarky, to say the least.

[instead of answering the question]

Don't butcher the quote. Yes I'm snarky, but I'm also not accusing people of performing an execution because I lack an understanding of tactical positioning.

I used the part that was offensive. You didn't even use a # sign. There are 2 sides to this, doesn't mean you can insult others with foul language.

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: reldra

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Rezlooper


So, there were no officers behind their vehicles in the road block? They all went and hid up in the woods?

Since you're trying to be a snarky little #

Just you calling someone that is being snarky, to say the least.

[instead of answering the question]

Don't butcher the quote. Yes I'm snarky, but I'm also not accusing people of performing an execution because I lack an understanding of tactical positioning.

I used the part that was offensive. You didn't even use a # sign. There are 2 sides to this, doesn't mean you can insult others with foul language.

Oh god, is this what we're doing? Complaining about swears?

a reply to: ReadLeader

That being said, Lavoy was NOT going to jail. His ship had sailed
He clearly wanted to meet his maker,,,,suicide by cop,,,,,,,

I've read a number of your posts on this subject. Your opinion is biased.

I don't think I've ever read a thread from Rez with out flagging it.

SnF

a reply to: Kali74

Yes slander, false statements about someone used to make him look bad. I'm sorry tell you this, really I am, but the likelihood that you have the ability to understand these people's state of mind, level of psychosis, is slim to none.

Their protest, their behavior, their civil disobedience, weather right or wrong, was nothing short of impeccable. No one hurt anyone except for this man, very little destruction of property, the respect of the innocents involved. That is the opposite of bat # crazy.

Why would anyone demonize and slander something like that? Oh yeah, because they are white, Christians with cowboy hats.

a reply to: onequestion
Would this be the same daughters witness statement that first night that said he was on his knees when he was shot?

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Necrobile

Good take on it Nec. He may have been attempting to draw attention away from the truck. We don't know and as you say we are left with pure speculation.
My speculation is that he jumped from the truck so quickly so as to head for the hills, to try and get away.(he had already demonstrated this mindset by pulling away from the first road block). Then he saw the 'post' that LEO had placed out there in the tree line and he turned around and saw the other guy advancing and his rational brain just fried and his 'my gun will save me brain' kicked in automatically and he reached for it.

Never once in your theory do you mention the fact that his hands were raised in the air. How does that play into this. He got out to run for the woods and decided to run with his hands in the air?

Nothing he did was rational starting with the armed occupation. Then running a truck into a snow bank at high speed. Then jumping out when you know he should have remained in the vehicle with hands out the window. He decided he was going to run for the woods when he saw that option closed think it only left one in his mind. Big mistake assuming he was rational when from the begining he showed otherwise.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Necrobile

Good take on it Nec. He may have been attempting to draw attention away from the truck. We don't know and as you say we are left with pure speculation.
My speculation is that he jumped from the truck so quickly so as to head for the hills, to try and get away.(he had already demonstrated this mindset by pulling away from the first road block). Then he saw the 'post' that LEO had placed out there in the tree line and he turned around and saw the other guy advancing and his rational brain just fried and his 'my gun will save me brain' kicked in automatically and he reached for it.

Never once in your theory do you mention the fact that his hands were raised in the air. How does that play into this. He got out to run for the woods and decided to run with his hands in the air?

Nothing he did was rational starting with the armed occupation. Then running a truck into a snow bank at high speed. Then jumping out when you know he should have remained in the vehicle with hands out the window. He decided he was going to run for the woods when he saw that option closed think it only left one in his mind. Big mistake assuming he was rational when from the begining he showed otherwise.

So, it's irrational to take a stand for something you believe in?

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: schuyler

That would be a stretch of the definition of suicidal. Willing to die for a cause is not a suicidal statement.

yes, it is. The man said many times that he was willing to die for his cause. Being suicidal for a cause is still being suicidal. You don't have to be despondent to be suicidal. Stupidity will work just fine.

originally posted by: Rezlooper

You can't clearly see anything in the video. Looks more like to me that he reacted to either being shot, or shot at. And just because someone talks the tough talk of not being taken alive, doesn't mean its true. If he were going to carry out with his pledge of fighting first, he wouldn't have gotten out with his hands held high... he would have come out guns-a-blazin'

YOU would do that, perhaps. You can see clearly in the video, but at this point I think people are polarized enough that they will see what they want to see. Nobody's mind will be changed. The fact is the man is dead, no one will be "charged" in his death, and his death will not cause some sort of uprising. The whole thing was a complete failure, as I detailed in depth right here.

One thing we can agree on... It was a complete failure and a man lost his life over it.