The Point that Living Wage Supporters Ignore

There's a dozen threads on here about how a living wage, or higher minimum wage, or tweaked tax structure would be a glorious improvement to society. Tax the rich, they say. Make the corporations pay, they say. Like a bunch of Robin Hood's Merry Flippin Men...

There's no jobs, say these people. "There's not enough positions for the amount of people we have", some say. Solution: Tax the rich, implement a minimum income for all.

So...how does "tax the rich and the big corporations" REALLY help anyone?

I want to know, and I don't mean this sarcastically, how do you figure it will work?

Let's say we tax the rich more. Do you think they're just going to eat it and cut their losses?
Do you suppose that they'll stay in the country? Why?
And if they do, do you think they'll swallow the loss themselves and not raise prices to increase profit margins again? Or are you proposing banning profit?
A business exists to make a profit (perhaps one of the most basic principles of economics). If profits are hurting, one of a few things must happen: Costs go down to increase profit margins (this could mean fewer jobs), or prices go up, which cancels out much of the gains anyone gets from extra income. There's always the "but if sales go up, so do profits" argument, but that's not entirely accurate. The profit margin remains the same. It's still a percentage.
If you take away "bailouts" or "tax breaks" that businesses get now to pay for increased wages or minimum income levels, what do you think the companies will do? Eat the loss? Accept that "oh well, these guys think we made too much money so now we'll accept a smaller profit margin"? What is the thought process here?

Again...how does "tax the rich and the big corporations" REALLY help anyone? What do you gain that isn't offset but a change somewhere else? We can't ban the rich from leaving the country, and we can't force them to hire people, and capping profit margins will drive business elsewhere, so how does this help? This question keeps coming up in every other thread and almost nobody discusses it. They just ramble about "the rich should pay their fair share". For the record, I agree with this. We should all pay. A flat tax rate, in my opinion, would be pretty close to ideal. But that's off topic.

My opinion - going after the top 1% hurts the bottom 99% more than it hurts the top 1%. Things always balance out. An increase here leads to a decrease there. Smaller margins here lead to increased cost there. Increased costs to employers lead to increased costs to consumers (which negates any increase in wages).

a reply to: stolencar18

Agreed. I saw a breakdown and if they took all the money from the rich it would provide about $640 per person in the US.
The people pushing these ideas simply don't look at the realities on the ground. It is pie in the sky ideology. And as you said, the people and businesses would just leave and go elsewhere.

The younger milineals really are delusional. I talk to my daughters friends (23/24y.o.) and they all think everything should be given to them, houses, cars, food, medical, and money. It is amazing to see what is obviously a change in education has done to their ideologies and understanding of how a society works. When Putin told the US to not move toward socialism because they tried it and it doesn't work, I thought that would put an end to the pursuit of a failed idea. Just look at Greece, and that should tell you what happens.

And it has been stated that the end to democracy comes when the people figure out they can vote in policies to distribute the money to themselves. We see that process well underway and the disaster is going to be spectacular.

I like the "guaranteed income for everyone" bit the best. They simply cannot seem to grasp the meaning of 300 million people and the massive amount of money that would take to sustain.

The so-called "rich" are ALREADY TAXED. Following are 2010 figures from the IRS:

100%: 139,960,580 returns paid taxes of $1,031,512mil for 100% AGI for 100% of taxes
Top 1%: 1,399,606 returns paid $392,149mil for 20.70% AGI for 38.02% of taxes
Top 5%: 6,998,029 returns paid $213,569mil for 34.73% AGI for 58.72% share
Top 10%: 13,996,068 returns paid $721,421mil for 45.77% AGI for 69.94% of taxes
Top 25%: 34,990,145 returns paid $890,614mil for 67.38% AGI for 86.34% of taxes
Top 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $1,003,639mil for 87.25% AGI for 97.30% of taxes
Bottom 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $27,783 mil for 12.75% AGI for 2.59% of taxes.

AGI = Adjusted Gross Income. So to put this in story problem form:

The top 1% earned 20.70% of the income, but paid 38.02% of all income taxes.
The top 5% earned 34.73% of the income, but paid 58.72% of all income taxes.
The top 10% earned 45.77% of the income, but paid 69.94% of all income taxes.
The top 25% earned 67.38% of the income, but paid 86.34% of all income taxes.
The top 50% earned 87.25% of the income, but paid 97.30% of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the income, but paid 2.59% of all income taxes

Now let’s put that in perspective.

The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 5% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $159,619.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.

So nearly half of you pay NOTHING to the Feds for taxes.

Now let's talk about those evil corporations. WHO PAYS corporate taxes?

YOU DO!

If you buy a widgit, whether it is a knitting needle or a new automobile, the corporation that made it rolls EVERY CENT of the taxes it is forced to pay into the cost of that product.

The so-called "rich" are paying TWICE their "fair share" already. So when you guys harp on and on about the rich needing to pay their fair share, well then, cut their taxes in half so that they pay the same percentage in taxes that they make. If they "really" paid their "fair share" they would get a whopping tax cut. And this, incidentally is why when a tax cut does come around the "bottom half" don't get much of a tax cut and whine about it. But why? Because THEY DON'T PAY TAXES ANYWAY!

The reason you can't get a job is because you are insufficiently educated to qualify for the millions of jobs that are in demand. You couldn't hack the math or the intellectual rigor required so you punted with another B.A. in English, and now you say there are no jobs.

You guys are already on the dole, and now you just want more dole.

Sounds to me like they want a "trophy" for living. But, I could be wrong (likely not though).

a reply to: stolencar18

It goes like this OP.

More than half of the people in this country are in poverty or just barely above it.
'
Despite work ethic etc.....

Many of the service sector companies and retail outlets make hundreds of millions or even billions a year in profits.

If say walmart is pulling down $6,000,000 in profits, because they are paying their employees so little that just to live and feed themselves they require tax payer money, why should walmart even exist at all?

Because without the corporate welfare check the GOV cuts them in the form of welfare for their employees, they wouldnt even exist at all, because nobody would work there at all.

Because nobody is going to work 40 hours a week just to starve to death.

In short, the business model of all these low wage places is obviously flawed, thus they should be shut down, so a business with a valid model that doesnt require GOV welfare to earn their profits can take their place.

And make no mistake. Walmart doesnt create jobs, neither does mcdonalds.

Demand creates jobs.

There is a demand for fast food and retail items, someone will take their place gladly, with a model that doesnt require welfare wages so they can make billions, when they could make millions and pay a decent wage to all.

I know seems complicated.

But when a first world country, the richest by far in the world, has 1/2 its work force in poverty there is an obvious problem.

The issue isnt a shortage of resources. There is more than enough for all to live quite well.

It is a glut of greed by the few with the most.

I cant believe this actually needs explaining honestly.

This isnt the dark ages where there is simply not enough, this is modern times, there is more than enough.

In America today we actually have company owners that have more compared to their employees who are doing all the profit generating work, than the kings of Europe did compared to their serfs.

In fact, the last time in the west the gap was this wide Mary Antoinette said "let them eat cake" not long before they cut her head off.

Some of us would like to solve this problem before it gets that far.

Not sit back and say "well I got mine, too bad for them".




Edited to fix autocorrect mistakes

It's not "going after," the rich, or the top 1%.

It's a simple, rather easy question, and the thing that so many miss while defending the corporate-oligarchy, is that is has nothing to do with taxes. *gasp* - I don't understand economics, I need to get a degree to understand it! (lol).

There is no argument that "the rich," do in fact pay their "fair share," when it comes to the American-legal tax system - yet, I have to ask:

Why do American companies that hire American workers - except for those such as Caterpillar, that are currently outsourcing jobs, and many others - use off-shore accounts to store gross profits, ranging into the trillion dollar range?

Well, where many would simply call this "good business," such as those that defend Shrikeli and his hiking up of life-saving AIDS medications, yet was shortly arrested for robbing investors (ironic), it's a purposeful avoiding of the American tax system.

So, if our tax system is so-good-for-everyone, and does not need to be changed in any shape or form, why do many of these companies - excluding the "good business," argument - avoid our tax system?

Also, with the TPP - one has to look at what this exactly entails, "global market," and all of that. Here's something to chew on - minimum wage in Vietnam (if I recall correctly), is $0.53/hr, and Malaysia I believe is in the same ballpark.

The TPP, again, in a global market, matches American productivity to such places at Vietnam.

Now you tell me, is it "good business," to hire someone at $0.53/hr, or a federal-mandated $15.00/hr?

This - in my opinion - is why we've seen an emergence of "low-paying jobs," whereas in a decline in "high-paying jobs," for many of these high-paying jobs are going overseas where federal-mandated wages (or lack thereof), present fertile ground for massive profits, leaving many of the low-paying jobs the only choice, especially for those currently pursuing formal education, although - this statement certainly does not to say, there are NO high-paying jobs, for there are, but I feel as if less do exist.

All of this is easy enough to dismiss as "fair enough, it is the way the world works," to one who does not pay attention or care as to how the world works, and here's the kicker - the TPP, in general, was written by these corporations. And, in general, was passed due to their influence in our government and Congress.

Remember - The Federal Reserve - the very entity that has NO oversight by the Federal Government, for it is a private banking cartel, the same entity that is responsible for the 2008 crisis, student loan debt bubble, and other economic events - are the first to call out, what is considered, "bad for the economy."

The conflicting-interests are strong in this debate, and I will not peach the dogma laid out upon by the corrupt as "estabshible, empirical, and reasonable," for it is these very entities that operate in a way that they (conveniently) manipulate, abuse, and avoid the very system they wish to impose on everyone else.

Now, my all time favorite red herring, "well, what do you propose is better?" No - not me, take it from people such as Dr. Ron Paul that have been proposing ideas for decades.

Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Duke we dont agree on much very often, because I am more of righty on guns and foreign policy, but im very left of center on the economy.

Good post good points

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Well, many of them do pay to taxes. To the tune of a few hundred million, which to them, is like five bucks to us "mere peons."

What matters, is why they store trillions off-shore, that are not accounted for by the American-legal tax system.

But hey, in some twisted logic, our job creators need to store their trillions in profits in Switzerland because that starts American jobs in America.

But yeah, I've hit to hear a logical argument regarding "outsourcing jobs," aside from competing in a global market - but then we get into TPP, which I've already discussed, and frankly - outsourcing jobs does not help anyone but those doing the outsourcing.

"That's basic economics," as everyone loves to flaunt.

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Then give him a good wage. Hire him and pay him what you think he deserves. But to expect others to do it where you yourself will not is utterly ridiculous.

a reply to: forkedtongue

Very very well said!

There is so much BS being put about to protect the rich and their wealth (just look at the op!) that many are now starting to swallow it!

Your post says it much better than I ever could so I'll repeat it.

It goes like this OP.

More than half of the people in this country are in poverty or just barely above it.
'
Despite work ethic etc.....

Many of the service sector companies and retail outlets make hundreds of millions or even billions a year in profits.

If say walmart is pulling down $6,000,000 in profits, because they are paying their employees so little that just to live and feed themselves they require tax payer money, why should walmart even exist at all?

Because without the corporate welfare check the GOV cuts them in the form of welfare for their employees, they wouldnt even exist at all, because nobody would work there at all.

Because nobody is going to work 40 hours a week just to starve to death.

In short, the business model of all these low wage places is obviously flawed, thus they should be shut down, so a business with a valid model that doesnt require GOV welfare to earn their profits can take their place.

And make no mistake. Walmart doesnt create jobs, neither does mcdonalds.

Demand creates jobs.

There is a demand for fast food and retail items, someone will take their place gladly, with a model that doesnt require welfare wages so they can make billions, when they could make millions and pay a decent wage to all.

I know seems complicated.

But when a first world country, the richest by far in the world, has 1/2 its work force in poverty there is an obvious problem.

The issue isnt a shortage of resources. There is more than enough for all to live quite well.

It is a glut of greed by the few with the most.

I cant believe this actually needs explaining honestly.

This isnt the dark ages where there is simply not enough, this is modern times, there is more than enough.

In America today we actually have company owners that have more compared to their employees who are doing all the profit generating work, than the kings of Europe did compared to their serfs.

In fact, the last time in the west the gap was this wide Mary Antoinette said "let them eat cake" not long before they cut her head off.

Some of us would like to solve this problem before it gets that far.

Not sit back and say "well I got mine, too bad for them".

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Then give him a good wage. Hire him and pay him what you think he deserves. But to expect others to do it where you yourself will not is utterly ridiculous.

As a libertarian I would think you should understand this point very clearly.

The GOV, because of lobbying, has made it so all but impossible to start a new business or even expand a small mom and pop business it is ludicrous.

But they give many giant breaks to all the giant corps that can guarantee a better deal for their supply chain just because of volume and power.

I say level the field and watch walmart/mcdonalds type business models burn to the ground.

Simple really.

End welfare. Make it a $1,000,000 fine to employ an illegal alien, per employed alien, per day employed.

They will pay a livable wage or go out of business because nobody will work there.

Capitalism at its finest.

Supply and demand in action.

Because without illegals undercutting Americans, these places will be ghost towns the first month the foodstamps dont come in.

The problem is GOV intervention.

I am also a centrist, and I see clearly what the problems here are with our economy.

Welfare was a free check to underpay workers, so businesses took it. Why wouldnt they?

The worker can still feed his family, but not by making enough, but through welfare.

The business side saw this and ran with it.

Creating todays economy of quaranteed fail for 1/2 of workers no matter what anyone does.

Even if everyone made all the right choices and worked hard.

1/2 would live in working poverty, that is the situation the welfare state has created.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Corporations don't pay taxes. Any tax cost gets passed on to the consumer.

Corporations move off shore for lower labor costs. There is this little thing called competition that means a company has to constantly keep trying to lower their cost basis to remain competitive and keep prices low for consumers. Companies will stop moving jobs off shore when consumers stop nickle and diming them for low costs.

If any of these corporations are reaping excessive profits, then by all means start your own company and under cut them! You liberals love to talk about all the excess rents that companies earn unfairly, yet I don't see you all putting your money up to start your own companies. You can pay your janitors $20/hr. Secretaries $50/hr. Only require a 20 hour work week. Cap the CEOs pay at $100k. Do whatever the heck you want!

It is a free market after all. Put up or shut up.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Then give him a good wage. Hire him and pay him what you think he deserves. But to expect others to do it where you yourself will not is utterly ridiculous.

I.E. The Waltons - I was not born into a family that owns own of the wealthiest commercial-retailers/grocers in existence.

How - in your right mind - would you expect me, to open up a mom and pop grocery store, and compete with that? Are you kidding me, you do know where their HEIRS stand on the worlds richest?

One of them, in an interview, said that (and I paraphrase); "My brothers and I would often discuss at the dinner table what we can do to make this world a better place."

How many of your full-time employees are currently on government-assistance? Of that percentage - how many are accredited and degree-required positions?

"Pull yourself up from your bootstraps," has been whined and dined and resulted in greater nets of poverty (national fiscal debt), as well as the common American citizen.

You want to know who hasn't suffered? Who hasn't had student loan interest rate increase? Car rates?

There are some, sure - too many, absolutely - that have a mindset of delusional selfishness, I DESERVE this or that - but, that does not make up the whole.

I worked with a guy who worked full-time at one job as management, and as a part-time waiter as another. You folks can call them all lazy if you will, but I absolutely guarantee - this dude would run your ass down the ground if you weren't working, and he was THE hardest, and most respectful manager I've worked under.

Oh yeah - he had two different degrees too. But hey, he should've went to school for something else, amirite? That's what they always tell me, I can't wait to hear the next line of excuses!

Some of the hardest working people I met were working minimum wage jobs, and some of the laziest I met happened to be those at the top of the food chain. A matter of fact, after witnessing two of my bosses both conversing for thirty minutes - and I needed to be off at precisely the time I was scheduled to be off in order to get my girlfriend to her job (one vehicle at the moment) - I took it upon myself to leave, as I had been there for an additional thirty minutes, and needless to say, I won't be returning.

But hey - when I'm supposed to work until a certain time - and it's EXPLICITY stated beforehand that I cannot stay later than my scheduled times - and is posted at multiple places, that time is actually variable? I understand that to a degree - but try not to be The Grinch, and have a heart for other people.

Something that's been lost in the art of business in today's America.

Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It was intended to prevent companies from taking advantage of the employee. Why should people be rewarded for doing nothing? If people are not willing to better themselves and to move on to bigger and better things then they should be happy with their crummy pay. I know some college graduates who are barely making $15 an hour, and you expect them to be okay with some fry jockey making more than them? What would be the incentive to work hard, or to advance themselves, and take on debt and responsibility. I know jobs are getting harder to find, but that's part of the freedom of this country...pack up and move for better work if you can, better yourself and keep fighting for a new job if you can't. Just don't tell me you deserve more for doing nothing.

originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Then give him a good wage. Hire him and pay him what you think he deserves. But to expect others to do it where you yourself will not is utterly ridiculous.

I.E. The Waltons - I was not born into a family that owns own of the wealthiest commercial-retailers/grocers in existence.

How - in your right mind - would you expect me, to open up a mom and pop grocery store, and compete with that? Are you kidding me, you do know where their HEIRS stand on the worlds richest?

One of them, in an interview, said that (and I paraphrase); "My brothers and I would often discuss at the dinner table what we can do to make this world a better place."

How many of your full-time employees are currently on government-assistance? Of that percentage - how many are accredited and degree-required positions?

"Pull yourself up from your bootstraps," has been whined and dined and resulted in greater nets of poverty (national fiscal debt), as well as the common American citizen.

You want to know who hasn't suffered? Who hasn't had student loan interest rate increase? Car rates?

There are some, sure - too many, absolutely - that have a mindset of delusional selfishness, I DESERVE this or that - but, that does not make up the whole.

I worked with a guy who worked full-time at one job as management, and as a part-time waiter as another. You folks can call them all lazy if you will, but I absolutely guarantee - this dude would run your ass down the ground if you weren't working, and he was THE hardest, and most respectful manager I've worked under.

Oh yeah - he had two different degrees too. But hey, he should've went to school for something else, amirite? That's what they always tell me, I can't wait to hear the next line of excuses!

Some of the hardest working people I met were working minimum wage jobs, and some of the laziest I met happened to be those at the top of the food chain. A matter of fact, after witnessing two of my bosses both conversing for thirty minutes - and I needed to be off at precisely the time I was scheduled to be off in order to get my girlfriend to her job (one vehicle at the moment) - I took it upon myself to leave, as I had been there for an additional thirty minutes, and needless to say, I won't be returning.

But hey - when I'm supposed to work until a certain time - and it's EXPLICITY stated beforehand that I cannot stay later than my scheduled times - and is posted at multiple places, that time is actually variable? I understand that to a degree - but try not to be The Grinch, and have a heart for other people.

Something that's been lost in the art of business in today's America.

Quoted for truth!!!!

The laziest people I have ever seen are at the top of the food chain and complain about the lazy poor, that work their butts off in deplorable conditions at more than 1 job and still eat roman noodles several times a week just to get by and never have anything.

No property, nothing of value, never know whats it is like to have a new car, buys all their clothes at the thrift store......

Just smacks me in the face when I see this BS posted up here.

originally posted by: RomeByFire

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

Big corps makes billions of dollard in profit, get away with barely paying any taxes,'then close shop and go to third world countries to have there product produced.

But yea its the poor guys fault he wants a wage to survive.

Then give him a good wage. Hire him and pay him what you think he deserves. But to expect others to do it where you yourself will not is utterly ridiculous.

I.E. The Waltons - I was not born into a family that owns own of the wealthiest commercial-retailers/grocers in existence.

How - in your right mind - would you expect me, to open up a mom and pop grocery store, and compete with that? Are you kidding me, you do know where their HEIRS stand on the worlds richest?

One of them, in an interview, said that (and I paraphrase); "My brothers and I would often discuss at the dinner table what we can do to make this world a better place."

How many of your full-time employees are currently on government-assistance? Of that percentage - how many are accredited and degree-required positions?

"Pull yourself up from your bootstraps," has been whined and dined and resulted in greater nets of poverty (national fiscal debt), as well as the common American citizen.

You want to know who hasn't suffered? Who hasn't had student loan interest rate increase? Car rates?

There are some, sure - too many, absolutely - that have a mindset of delusional selfishness, I DESERVE this or that - but, that does not make up the whole.

I worked with a guy who worked full-time at one job as management, and as a part-time waiter as another. You folks can call them all lazy if you will, but I absolutely guarantee - this dude would run your ass down the ground if you weren't working, and he was THE hardest, and most respectful manager I've worked under.

Oh yeah - he had two different degrees too. But hey, he should've went to school for something else, amirite? That's what they always tell me, I can't wait to hear the next line of excuses!

Some of the hardest working people I met were working minimum wage jobs, and some of the laziest I met happened to be those at the top of the food chain. A matter of fact, after witnessing two of my bosses both conversing for thirty minutes - and I needed to be off at precisely the time I was scheduled to be off in order to get my girlfriend to her job (one vehicle at the moment) - I took it upon myself to leave, as I had been there for an additional thirty minutes, and needless to say, I won't be returning.

But hey - when I'm supposed to work until a certain time - and it's EXPLICITY stated beforehand that I cannot stay later than my scheduled times - and is posted at multiple places, that time is actually variable? I understand that to a degree - but try not to be The Grinch, and have a heart for other people.

Something that's been lost in the art of business in today's America.

Business start and fail every day. Many of the largest companies today were once underdogs and history is littered with the failures of large corporations. Remember when IBM dominated personal computers? Remember Blackberry? REmeber Gateway Computer? Atari? Michael Dell selling computers in his dorm room? Remember when Apple was only used by graphic artist geeks and had the failed Newton? Remember when Ted Turner had Turner Broadcasting a showed nothing but wrestling? Remember when MTV was some some cable channel? Remember when a guy started a taco stand that grew into Chipotle? Or how Starbucks used to be a local Seattle coffee shop?

originally posted by: elsafam357
Minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It was intended to prevent companies from taking advantage of the employee. Why should people be rewarded for doing nothing? If people are not willing to better themselves and to move on to bigger and better things then they should be happy with their crummy pay. I know some college graduates who are barely making $15 an hour, and you expect them to be okay with some fry jockey making more than them? What would be the incentive to work hard, or to advance themselves, and take on debt and responsibility. I know jobs are getting harder to find, but that's part of the freedom of this country...pack up and move for better work if you can, better yourself and keep fighting for a new job if you can't. Just don't tell me you deserve more for doing nothing.

This post is the epitome of idiocy!

Because 1/2 of the jobs in this country dont pay jack # guy! Why else do you think there are so many poor?

Was that so hard to understand?

a reply to: Edumakated

Turner Broadcasting... oh the memories, or nightmares haha.

There are definitely legitimate examples of start-up businesses that have came out of nowhere. I have an uncle that started his own business with one other guy in roofing/siding, he is now a multi-millionaire with 83 people working underneath of him.

Thing is.. I really don't care to be a millionaire. I don't care for money as most people do, I'd rather help people and enjoy their company, and sure - much of this requires money, but I'm NOT a businessman - people over profits, all day, every day. To each his own, I suppose.

We really don't have much of a free market though, man. Bail outs, for example - IF and only if, we had a free market - these bail outs never would have occurred, too big to fail - never would have existed.

They would have failed, and the chaos - would have been real.

But this is not a free market, and the tax-payer funded bailouts is proof that corporate welfare does exist, case and point, bailouts.

My point isn't a business one, it's a reality one.

Why are these business using off-shore accounts to avoid the American-legal system, if it is so fair and just?