Female Amazon warrior buried 2,500 years ago in Altai Mountains was... male

originally posted by: DexterRiley
I was under the impression that one could use the size of the pelvis to determine whether a skeleton belonged to a man or woman. But, as I was reading through some of the comments, I noted that one poster indicated that because the teenager was only 14 or 15, that particular technique is somewhat unreliable.

You can use the pelvis, yes. There's also the slope of the forehead and the relative thickness of the bones. However, given the variety of human shapes, it's not 100% accurate.

I also seem to recall that both Native Americans and Indians had a "third gender" that was well integrated into their society without the prejudices that have arisen in more modern times. Whether their "transgenderness" was related to being intersexed or some other genetic influence remains to be seen.

Many early societies (and some modern societies) have a recognized place for these people - they're often healers or shamans or priests. "Transgender" is not the term I would use... I prefer "Two-Spirit People" since many of the female "Two Spirit" live comfortably as female (and males likewise.)

It is not necessarily the same thing as being gay, either. Wikipeda on "Two Spirit" people

a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

They interpreted female because of some female-centric artifacts with the body and because they were emotionally invested in the idea of Amazons. The facial reconstruction looks androgynous, leaning toward male, but that would be expected with the young age. Genetically male, dressed as a male, buried with another male, this was a boy. An important boy, but a boy. I think interpreting "trans-gender" because of some feminine artifacts is jumping pretty far for that conclusion. Maybe those were from his mother or to acknowledge that side of his lineage...? Just another possibility for their presence in the burial.

Although, initially the archeologists jumped very hastily to assume the body was female; while this is certainly confusing the issue, transgender is a stretch, and a big one. Don't replace one emotionally driven mistaken conclusion for an even bigger one.

Very cool story if true.

Wish they used some credible sources (or any at all). Seems like there is a lot of information about this tomb, yet they only wrote a couple small paragraphs with very little details.

Hopefully an article about this will come with some actual information and sources so we can get more real info.

a reply to: Byrd

Thanks for the information about the "Two-Spirit People". Unfortunately, as is typical of Wikipedia, the article provides a lot of contradictory information. However, I believe this paragraph from the introduction is more in-line with what I understand from previous reading:

The presence of male-bodied two-spirits "was a fundamental institution among most tribal peoples" and, according to Will Roscoe, both male- and female-bodied two-spirits have been documented "in over 130 North American tribes, in every region of the continent."

While some of the other points in the article would appear to be more influenced by Post-Columbian references that were probably influenced by European ideals.

The notion of a person being defined at birth as a Two-Spirit is interesting. From a phenotypical perspective, I would assume this is based on genital ambiguity, generally referred to as Intersexed, as I've indicated in previous posts relating to the OP.

However, given your anthropological and archaeological knowledge, do you know if there were other characteristics that the spiritual leaders of the community may have used to make this determination?

-dex

originally posted by: DexterRiley
a reply to: Byrd

Thanks for the information about the "Two-Spirit People". Unfortunately, as is typical of Wikipedia, the article provides a lot of contradictory information. However, I believe this paragraph from the introduction is more in-line with what I understand from previous reading:

The presence of male-bodied two-spirits "was a fundamental institution among most tribal peoples" and, according to Will Roscoe, both male- and female-bodied two-spirits have been documented "in over 130 North American tribes, in every region of the continent."

While some of the other points in the article would appear to be more influenced by Post-Columbian references that were probably influenced by European ideals.

The notion of a person being defined at birth as a Two-Spirit is interesting. From a phenotypical perspective, I would assume this is based on genital ambiguity, generally referred to as Intersexed, as I've indicated in previous posts relating to the OP.

Nope. I know a lot of Two-Spirits. Fairly common in the Pagan community. They do not identify as Two Spirit at birth. It comes in behavior as they grow up.

However, given your anthropological and archaeological knowledge, do you know if there were other characteristics that the spiritual leaders of the community may have used to make this determination?

Leaders didn't determine who was and is Two Spirit. Two Spirits identify themselves in all cultures by deliberate choice in dress and behavior. Although they may play transsexual roles, this is not always the case.

It's quite a complex field of study - in part because here in the West it's taboo and people who are Two Spirits are seen as freaks (and therefore they tend to try to change some behavior to hide in certain groups in the culture (men who, for example, secretly wear women's underwear under masculine clothing or hide women's clothes and makeup in their living space but would not appear as a woman in public unless for a Halloween party where such costuming was sanctioned.)

originally posted by: odinsway
a reply to: luciddream
Gender separation has been been around since the Neandrathals...To think otherwise is to deny history....and reality...

Yes, though ironically your namesake was known for blurring those lines through his knowledge of the feminine technique of seidr, which does bolster the claim in the op a bit of a sort of third way of advanced knowledge even if being taboo.

a reply to: Byrd

Nope. I know a lot of Two-Spirits. Fairly common in the Pagan community.

I assume you mean the modern neo-pagan community. Was this also the case in prehistoric times?

They do not identify as Two Spirit at birth. It comes in behavior as they grow up.

Ok, I'll accept that. That makes a lot more sense. The reason I asked was because the Wikipedia article mentioned that Two-Spirits were determined to be such at birth.

Thanks.

-dex

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
I don't see how transgender even fits into this whole thing. At All.

That's because it doesn't, except for those trying to push an agenda. As you said, they made a mistake. End of story.