The Beginning of Socialism

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Vector99

What are you trying to tell me here? That you agree with me? Because that is literally the same link I just posted on the previous page, and it agrees with what I'm saying.

It contradicts everything you are saying because that doesn't exist in America.

It does exist in America. You are just trying to redefine words to suit your narrative so you don't have to admit that socialism is not only successful if done right but IS currently successful. I've been saying from the beginning that Democratic Socialism is what we have in our country.

Individual benefit in business doesn't exist in socialism. It has to benefit SOCIETY. You explain how walmart helps the community over itself and I'll agree we live in socialism.

That isn't how modern Socialism works. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that makes talking to you a waste of time. I really am done this time. Enjoy agreeing with yourself since you can't seem to accept information that conflicts with your world view.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Vector99

What are you trying to tell me here? That you agree with me? Because that is literally the same link I just posted on the previous page, and it agrees with what I'm saying.

It contradicts everything you are saying because that doesn't exist in America.

It does exist in America. You are just trying to redefine words to suit your narrative so you don't have to admit that socialism is not only successful if done right but IS currently successful. I've been saying from the beginning that Democratic Socialism is what we have in our country.

Individual benefit in business doesn't exist in socialism. It has to benefit SOCIETY. You explain how walmart helps the community over itself and I'll agree we live in socialism.

That isn't how modern Socialism works. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that makes talking to you a waste of time. I really am done this time. Enjoy agreeing with yourself since you can't seem to accept information that conflicts with your world view.

What type of economic system exists in the United States today? Although the United States is often regarded as a capitalist system, it is actually a “mixed economy.” Adam Smith emphasized that private property rights, freedom of choice and competition are necessary and fundamental elements of pure capitalism. Does the United States economy fulfill these conditions? Sort of. The U.S. economic system does have a high degree of private ownership and individual freedom, (see link for an index of economic freedom) but a significant component of the economy is controlled by the government. In fact, current estimates indicate that Federal government spending accounts for up to one-third of our economy.
This wasn’t always the case. Prior to the Great Depression of the 1930s, the United States was primarily a free-market capitalist system and government involvement was minimal. But the massive unemployment and widespread poverty of the Great Depression caused some to believe that capitalism, as an economic system, had failed. John Maynard Keynes revolutionized economic thought and proposed a system of “managed capitalism.” As a result of the Keynesian revolution government took a more active role in regulating the economy. This period created a change in the nature of government and the assumption of government’s responsibilities. Franklin Delano Roosevelt famously created an economic bill of rights that specified certain rights that were to be afforded to all. These included the right to an education, affordable health care and housing. The government assumed the responsibility to house, feed and educate its citizens.

link

You are smarter than colleges, got it.

a reply to: Vector99

What do you think "mixed" means? What is it a mixture of exactly? Since you refuse to do the math, I'll do it for you. It's a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism, which is Democratic Socialism.

a reply to: Vector99

Just playing word games.

Enterprises in the Soviet Union

the terms company, business, corporation, etc., were considered to be attributes of capitalism that were inapplicable to the Soviet socialist economy.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Vector99

What do you think "mixed" means? What is it a mixture of exactly? Since you refuse to do the math, I'll do it for you. It's a mixture of Socialism and Capitalism, which is Democratic Socialism.

Umm

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.

link
You were saying?

Oh and this

Although no country has fully instituted democratic socialism

a reply to: Vector99

Guess you missed this part:

Democratic socialists have long rejected the belief that the whole economy should be centrally planned. While we believe that democratic planning can shape major social investments like mass transit, housing, and energy, market mechanisms are needed to determine the demand for many consumer goods.

a reply to: daskakik

I give you a link to the Democratic Socialists of America in which they themselves plain as day state America is NOT a democratic socialism, and you cherry-pick an entirely unrelated comment.

I'm done with the ignorance in this thread.

originally posted by: Vector99
I give you a link to the Democratic Socialists of America in which they themselves plain as day state America is NOT a democratic socialism, and you cherry-pick an entirely unrelated comment.

I was referring to your claim that socialism doesn't allow for those things.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Vector99
I give you a link to the Democratic Socialists of America in which they themselves plain as day state America is NOT a democratic socialism, and you cherry-pick an entirely unrelated comment.

I was referring to your claim that socialism doesn't allow for those things.

True socialism doesn't allow for it. Democratic socialism does, we have neither.

originally posted by: Vector99
True socialism doesn't allow for it. Democratic socialism does, we have neither.

You have taxes, that amount to the same thing but, you want to play word games.

ETA: There is nothing that says that socialism can't allow those things except good old anti-red propaganda.

originally posted by: CB328
Where did you get the crazy idea that the 1800's were great? That was the time when the Robber Barons controlled us and most people lived in poverty, worked every day and died by 60.

I do not know anyone over 60 who is more than a worn out shell of a human being. And just about every one of them spent their entire lives pointlessly slaving away for a utopian retirement that would be absolutely nothing like what they expected.

Some things have changed. Technology has advanced and pulled a thin veil over a lot of the misery. People do live longer (for all the good it does). The better working conditions allow many people to deny what work really is. Credit gives people things they can't really afford.

People reproduce thoughtlessly and (often) pointlessly and many do fall through the cracks. At which point, they are merely exploited as an excuse for more government. Ahhh...we can't let these poor people suffer! Well, why not? We're reproducing like rabbits. Don't we know what happens when supply exceeds demand? We got millions and millions of people walking around who don't have a purpose. Whose only value is to those who use them to make a political point.

These people will be on every commercial and advertisement you'll ever see for big government. The state literally feeds on these people. The evil corporations have no use for them unless they can find a way to force them to produce something of value. At which point, corporations and governments basically become the same thing. They both want the same thing. More cattle.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

That was a very dead on assessment there. I enjoyed learning about the Germans basically inventing insurance it seems in the OP??? Thats cool. Maybe that explains some things??

This History forum is so cool. I already learned a bunch of new stuff and I cant go to sleep because I want to read more! Keep it coming everyone.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

Something in your rant doesn't add up. Nobody has a purpose. We could all fall dead this instant and this planet and everything else on it would just continue.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: BrianFlanders

Something in your rant doesn't add up. Nobody has a purpose. We could all fall dead this instant and this planet and everything else on it would just continue.

Well, the word "purpose" I guess is pretty subjective.

Really, all I was trying to say is that most people WANT to fit in somewhere. They need to feel useful, whether it's a consequential thing or not (in the grand scheme or things). When you have a massive number of people wondering around without any sense of purpose, that leaves those people wide open for all kinds of manipulation and abuse.

Basically, a lot of them are so desperate for any sense of meaning, they'll go along with just about anything that feeds them. Basically, big government is a self-perpetuating thing. It becomes some kind of weird symbiosis. The government can't survive without poverty and struggle and need. The people who feed on government benefits have an obvious incentive to continue to purposely make all the original issues worse. And also, at some point, they become incapable of fending for themselves and they can't survive without the massive machine that was built solely to feed them and to harvest whatever they produce.

And here is the thing most people don't think about. Big government is part of the economy. Once you create a bunch of government jobs, you've added to the problem because those people who work those jobs depend on them for their livelihood. So they have an incentive to make sure temporary problems become permanent problems. Nobody wants to lose their job. And next week or next month or next year, everything will get worse and they'll need a new law and a new government agency to deal with it.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
When you have a massive number of people wondering around without any sense of purpose, that leaves those people wide open for all kinds of manipulation and abuse.

People have been manilpulated for ages, purpose or not.

to harvest whatever they produce.

What would this be since you are saying that they don't produce anything?

Once you create a bunch of government jobs, you've added to the problem because those people who work those jobs depend on them for their livelihood. So they have an incentive to make sure temporary problems become permanent problems. Nobody wants to lose their job.

Agreed but the reason I see for this is that people can't stand to see people's basic needs met unless they "earn it". The way to deal with that is to hire people to work even if the work isn't really producing anything.

originally posted by: daskakik
The way to deal with that is to hire people to work even if the work isn't really producing anything.

And pay for it with what?

a reply to: BrianFlanders

Should have said "The way they deal with it" and the answer is taxes.

a reply to: DJW001


The socialist learns history from the sing along book

Without the rise of the labor movement, you could be working twelve hours a day, seven days a week with no possibility of furthering yourself through education.

Working hours were decreasing BEFORE the labor movement.