Islamic State threatens to decapitate Swedish people unless they convert to Islam

a reply to: ErrorErrorError

"Right wing nutters" uh huh how about no Scott

a reply to: GBP/JPY

What exactly would you do, cowpoke?
Play into the hands of those that want to cause more intolerance, hatred, fear and tension?

a reply to: TechniXcality

To be fair there have been some nutters on lately calling for nuking all Muslims or at the least killing families that may be related to Muslim extremists.


Well, maybe nutters isn't correct. The extremists are calling for radical elimination of other extremists plus families, civilizations or anyone who looks like their version of a extremist. Far as I can tell the extremists are all about the same.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Yes extremism is extremism no matter which way you cut it six one way half dozen the other. With one caveat the catalyst to right wing extremism in some instances is Islamic extremism as a way to circumvent the spread, that doesn't make it right anything but, however that is a nuance worth looking at.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
This is the plan of Isis, to draw a wedge between refugees and their host nations. Seems their propaganda is working and the west can't counter it. Instead fall for it and react in the desired manner.

You prefer to think ISIS does this and the west is not involved ??

You say the word ISIS like it is only Islam that is behind this tool.....

Islam will be sacrificed in the biggest way soon, and ISIS will still exist, long after Islam is gone !

As long as we are told stories like this that cause us to fear Muslims and terrorists and the middle eastern countries that "finance and protect" them, we're going to enthusiastically back up all military intervention and homeland security measures designed to "protect " us and our assets but really only serve the interests of the PTB.
I seriously doubt Daesh has selected random families to threaten AND that they've sent calling cards, announcing their intentions.
I call Propaganda...

originally posted by: FlySolo
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

ooh, now we're calling me an idiot. IC. As soon as a debate goes south in favor of the opponent, when all else fails, ad hom.

Again, those verses are not for Apostasy

Yes, yes they are. Right here specifically 9:11

"But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

Apostasy. Brah. There's more. Lots more. Shall I copy and paste it for you?

Finally, just no.
The Hadith are useless and only certain schools of thought follow certain Hadith.

They're never comparable to the Quran, I don't even know what you're talking about with that bollocks.

Then you're not a true Muslim. Actually, if I may, I think you're a wannabe Muslim because CLEARLY the three sacred text of Islam are the Qu'ran, Sira (life of Muhammad) and the Hadith (traditions of Muhammad) it's Islam 101 brother. Only a poser who isn't a true Muslim would say otherwise

Amusing that you declare ad hominem in short-hand and then later go on to commit the informal fallacy of no true scotsman. You, most assuredly not-a-Muslim, are debating someone who declares themselves to be Muslim ... telling them that their interpretation and practice of their belief is fundamentally wrong, because some Muslims -- the ones you are afraid of -- believe you cannot be a practicing Muslim without embracing their interpretation of the Hadiths.

I can find Christians who will cite chapter and verse supporting their bigoted and extreme views. It would not demonstrate that the the majority of Christians who choose not to interpret their holy texts that way are wrong. It would only prove that there are indeed other, more extreme Christians, who believe them to be. You're on the wrong side of this. The majority of Muslims who say "This is not Islam to me," are your allies, not your opponents, in the clash against radical Islam. There are indeed folks who have gotten deep in their cups with the wrong kool-aid. Stop demonizing your greatest ally against them: your many Muslim brothers and sisters who are also sick of this twisted interpretation of their faith.

a reply to: GBP/JPY

That's awesome lol I'd go with ya... FYI I'm all about the eur/jpy tonight, gonna crush it.

a reply to: JohnnyElohim

Well son of a no true scotsman, you're right. Guilty as charged. Whilst researching my response I discovered it is indeed quite the faux pas no no to accuse a fellow muslim to be karif. It would appear after some lengthy reading, it is deeply frowned upon, hence your astute awareness that I am clearly not Muslim, subsequent my karif comment. I would like to take this perfect opportunity to say how thankful I am that I can speak with unabandoned freedom on the topic without fear of reprisal or eternal damnation. Immune with impunity of the Muslim community. Now how awesome is that? Karif.

But I have a more serious contention to raise.

The famous eighteenth century saint of Delhi, Khawaja Mir Dard (d. 1785 C.E.), wrote: "We do not call kafir anyone of the people of the Qibla, even though he may be following falsehood or novel beliefs in most matters, because the acceptance of the oneness of God, and the affirmation of the prophethood of Muhammad, and the turning to the Qibla, do not expel them from faith as such. So he would be of those who follow later inventions and falsehood from among the Muslims. The Holy Prophet said: `Withhold in the matter of the people of the Qibla, that you do not call them kafir'.'' (Ilm al-Kitab, p. 75)...

"Three things are the basis of faith. [One is] to withhold from one who says `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call him kafir for any sin, nor expel him from Islam for any misconduct.'' (Abu Dawud, Book of Jihad, 15:33)

"Whoever attributes kufr [unbelief] to a believer, he is like his murderer.'' (Tirmizi, ch. Iman (Faith); see Arabic-Urdu edition cited earlier, vol. ii, p. 213. See also Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

www.islamopediaonline.org...

You're on the wrong side of this. The majority of Muslims who say "This is not Islam to me," are your allies, not your opponents, in the clash against radical Islam. There are indeed folks who have gotten deep in their cups with the wrong kool-aid. Stop demonizing your greatest ally against them: your many Muslim brothers and sisters who are also sick of this twisted interpretation of their faith.

It would appear to me, until Muslims are able to be critical of other Muslims, radical Islam will continue to grow. Denouncing ISIS is one thing but that's not going to do it. Reform within Islam is what is required but the way Islam is set up, constructed, it's impossible. And to say no reform is necessary, well, that's just another log on the fire

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Now if the Swedish had guns, lots of guns

Dont think anyone would get their heads cut off

Switzerland has a relatively high gun ownership rate 31%-61%.

i'm wondering if i'm the one who is confused about your meaning here, or if your confusing two different countries?
cause Sweden and Switzerland are not the same county, people from Switzerland are called Swiss, and people from Sweden are called Sweds/ Swedish which Raggedyman[ clearly said Swedish.

or are you speaking of something else that has / had happened in Switzerland that the high rate of gun ownership didn't stop?

originally posted by: FlySolo
a reply to: JohnnyElohim

Well son of a no true scotsman, you're right. Guilty as charged. Whilst researching my response I discovered it is indeed quite the faux pas no no to accuse a fellow muslim to be karif. It would appear after some lengthy reading, it is deeply frowned upon, hence your astute awareness that I am clearly not Muslim, subsequent my karif comment. I would like to take this perfect opportunity to say how thankful I am that I can speak with unabandoned freedom on the topic without fear of reprisal or eternal damnation. Immune with impunity of the Muslim community. Now how awesome is that? Karif.

But I have a more serious contention to raise.

The famous eighteenth century saint of Delhi, Khawaja Mir Dard (d. 1785 C.E.), wrote: "We do not call kafir anyone of the people of the Qibla, even though he may be following falsehood or novel beliefs in most matters, because the acceptance of the oneness of God, and the affirmation of the prophethood of Muhammad, and the turning to the Qibla, do not expel them from faith as such. So he would be of those who follow later inventions and falsehood from among the Muslims. The Holy Prophet said: `Withhold in the matter of the people of the Qibla, that you do not call them kafir'.'' (Ilm al-Kitab, p. 75)...

"Three things are the basis of faith. [One is] to withhold from one who says `There is no god but Allah' --- do not call him kafir for any sin, nor expel him from Islam for any misconduct.'' (Abu Dawud, Book of Jihad, 15:33)

"Whoever attributes kufr [unbelief] to a believer, he is like his murderer.'' (Tirmizi, ch. Iman (Faith); see Arabic-Urdu edition cited earlier, vol. ii, p. 213. See also Bukhari, Book of Ethics; Book 78, ch. 44)

www.islamopediaonline.org...

You're on the wrong side of this. The majority of Muslims who say "This is not Islam to me," are your allies, not your opponents, in the clash against radical Islam. There are indeed folks who have gotten deep in their cups with the wrong kool-aid. Stop demonizing your greatest ally against them: your many Muslim brothers and sisters who are also sick of this twisted interpretation of their faith.

It would appear to me, until Muslims are able to be critical of other Muslims, radical Islam will continue to grow. Denouncing ISIS is one thing but that's not going to do it. Reform within Islam is what is required but the way Islam is set up, constructed, it's impossible. And to say no reform is necessary, well, that's just another log on the fire

You're straining sense, my friend. I've ridden in countless taxi-cabs and drank at several pubs with Muslims (that's right: there are Muslims who engage with their culture in the same way that non-observant Jews engage with theirs - by showing love and respect without displaying total obedience for every law writ in an ancient text) who passionately explained to me why they love the United States, why they traveled here from their countries of origin, and why they reject the extremist views espoused by terror groups who use Islam as their foundation. It is deeply offensive for you to ask that every Rabbi answer for the views of some sexist Hasidim. It is deeply offensive to ask that every pastor or priest explain why Christianity does not necessarily involve letting yourself be bitten by poisonous snakes to prove your faith. And it is deeply offensive for you to ask that every Muslim answer for the ignorant hate that dwells amongst their minority.

To put it another way: assuming you are Christian for a moment, why have you not done more to root out the extremists among you who attack Planned Parenthood clinics? Are you a conservative? Then why have you not done more to seek out and eradicate the Timothy McVeigh's in your midst?

If you're offended by those questions, you should be. They're absurd and unfair, whether their like are being asked of a Christian, a Jew, a Conservative, or a Liberal. The vast majority of us participate in a meaningful discourse within society despite our differing views. To assassinate the character of one constituent of society because another who held some overlapping views did something truly awful is a cheap trick intended to distract and avoid. Not a real engagement, intended to evolve and enhance social discourse.

But you already know that, don't you?

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Christosterone

Just so you are aware, the Quran contradicts all of those Hadith...

4:137
Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.

No punishment, but lack of guidance from Allah.



Feel free to ignore this message though.
Others have.

You are preaching to the wrong choir there Charlie Speers. It isn't the non-muslims who aren't murdering anyone that you need to convince, it is the Muslims who are murdering people that need convincing. Feel free to ignore who the actual problem is though, others do.

a reply to: JohnnyElohim

I've ridden in countless taxi-cabs and drank at several pubs with Muslims (that's right: there are Muslims who engage with their culture in the same way that non-observant Jews engage with theirs

No doubt there are many many good people but that's never been the argument. The argument is about a religion that holds pernicious beliefs which are not inline with western values and refuses to have open dialog on reformation. Btw, any drinking Muslim would definitely be committing haram. FYI.

It is deeply offensive for you to ask that every Rabbi answer for the views of some sexist Hasidim. It is deeply offensive to ask that every pastor or priest explain why Christianity does not necessarily involve letting yourself be bitten by poisonous snakes to prove your faith. And it is deeply offensive for you to ask that every Muslim answer for the ignorant hate that dwells amongst their minority.

You're missing the point. The simple fact that it is forbidden to turn against a fellow Muslim exacerbates and empowers the extremists from within. The simple fact as I have already pointed out, by stigmatizing any discussion gives extremists a platform to work unchallenged. How can the good Muslims weed out the bad ones if they're trapped in a politicized theocracy? But you say...it's not "their" problem to work out. Is that right? Nothing to see here, move along? You know what that's called in drug addiction? Enabling.

If you're offended by those questions, you should be. They're absurd and unfair, whether their like are being asked of a Christian, a Jew, a Conservative, or a Liberal.

They're absurd because they're isolated incidents which have nothing to do with this radical Islam phenomenon.

a reply to: sputniksteve

I don't know any murderous Muslims though, Steve, so I'm left preaching to no one.

That's a good idea anyways, I hate proselytising, or even coming across that way.

a reply to: sputniksteve

Feel free to ignore who the actual problem is though, others do.

in Charlie's defense, i have seen him call isis worthless POS's they are in many posts. so i wouldn't say he is ignoring who the actual problem is.

me and Charlie have butted heads a few times, but i can't sit here and watch him be accused of something he hasn't done.

originally posted by: Grimpachi

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Now if the Swedish had guns, lots of guns

Dont think anyone would get their heads cut off

Switzerland has a relatively high gun ownership rate 31%-61%.

Huh? You do know that Sweden and Switzerland are different countries? The clue is in the fact that they have different names.

No doubt there are many many good people but that's never been the argument. The argument is about a religion that holds pernicious beliefs which are not inline with western values and refuses to have open dialog on reformation. Btw, any drinking Muslim would definitely be committing haram. FYI.

I'm afraid you've missed the point. A vast majority of people who consider themselves Muslim don't fit your tidy and frankly bigoted view of them. You brush them away by saying they don't understand their own religion, telling them they are "No True Muslim", adding insult to injury. You are wrong to do so.

You're missing the point. The simple fact that it is forbidden to turn against a fellow Muslim exacerbates and empowers the extremists from within. The simple fact as I have already pointed out, by stigmatizing any discussion gives extremists a platform to work unchallenged. How can the good Muslims weed out the bad ones if they're trapped in a politicized theocracy? But you say...it's not "their" problem to work out. Is that right? Nothing to see here, move along? You know what that's called in drug addiction? Enabling.

That's ridiculous. A pious Muslim could think of themselves as helping their brother or sister avoid damnation and death, in which case they'd hardly be turning against their fellow Muslim but instead doing their sacred duty. You give other religions room to interpret and re-interpret their holy texts (and they do) but pretend as though Muslims are incapable of nuance and applying a modern lens to their ancient text. You ignore Muslims here in this forum who tell you what their interpretation of their religion is and insist that your Brietbart-themed version is the only truth. That's what's so wrong-headed about your assertions.

They're absurd because they're isolated incidents which have nothing to do with this radical Islam phenomenon.

They are far from isolated. They are persistent manifestations of certain subcultures of Christianity and Judaism. I probably should have said Haredim rather than Hasidim as it's more general. Members of a religious faith attributing their backwardness and/or barbarism to their piety is not new or unique to Islam. Attacking civilians and employing the tactic of suicide bombing is also not unique. In the vast majority of cases in the case of all faiths, religion is a recruiting tool, a salve for the likelihood that participants in a cause will face death, or an accident of fate. The real motivations are most commonly sociopolitical and territorial.

[1] www.adl.org...
[2] Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism, ISBN 1-4000-6317-5

a reply to: JohnnyElohim

You don't even know the definition of bigot I'm afraid. Please refrain from using it loosely and I won't think you're incapable of holding a conversation. Just because I ask for a debate on Islamic reformation, it does not make me a bigot. So shame on you! Shame on you for marginalizing critical and independent thinking. Shame on you for stigmatizing intellectual discussion in favor of PC. So don't you dare lecture me.

That's ridiculous. A pious Muslim could think of themselves as helping their brother or sister avoid damnation and death, in which case they'd hardly be turning against their fellow Muslim but instead doing their sacred duty.

We must be subjectively viewing different realities because I haven't known Muslims to turn in sleeper cells or rat out family members. Look, radical Imams can stand in London streets promising Sharia law and no muslim ever confronts another on their radical opinions. Not once. Go watch some debates. The only Muslims you see debating other Muslims are EX Muslims.

They are far from isolated. They are persistent manifestations of certain subcultures of Christianity and Judaism. I probably should have said Haredim rather than Hasidim as it's more general. Members of a religious faith attributing their backwardness and/or barbarism to their piety is not new or unique to Islam.

Look, we don't have 200,000 pro lifers, Buddhist monks or right wing christian nutters trying to create a Caliphate right now with nearly 200 million sympathizers world wide. Enough with the right wing christian/jewish terrorist analogy because that shoe does not fit. Period.

originally posted by: meemaw
As long as we are told stories like this that cause us to fear Muslims and terrorists and the middle eastern countries that "finance and protect" them, we're going to enthusiastically back up all military intervention and homeland security measures designed to "protect " us and our assets but really only serve the interests of the PTB.
I seriously doubt Daesh has selected random families to threaten AND that they've sent calling cards, announcing their intentions.
I call Propaganda...

Why not , the Nazis did

People forget history too quickly

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: sputniksteve

I don't know any murderous Muslims though, Steve, so I'm left preaching to no one.

That's a good idea anyways, I hate proselytising, or even coming across that way.

It's probably a good thing you don't. If you did, you'd be under tremendous pressure to fall in line with them.