Islam Call To Prayer In America

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Gryphon66


I have a Yemeni friend who is an atheist, something he had to hide while still living there. The Adhan to him represented his bondage. I admit the Adhan is beautiful, especially in a setting like Jordan, but the principle behind it I cannot stand for.

Freedom of religion is two fold ... freedom to do it, freedom from it. There has to be a balance.

I'm glad you've come around.

I'm saying the same things I've said throughout this discussion.

Glad you've caught up!

a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm saying the same things I've said throughout this discussion.

Glad you've caught up!

Well, to be fair, you've argued the exact opposite in other discussions, but that is no longer here nor there. If this sentiment carries over to the next discussion, then I will be impressed.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm saying the same things I've said throughout this discussion.

Glad you've caught up!

Well, to be fair, you've argued the exact opposite in other discussions, but that is no longer here nor there. If this sentiment carries over to the next discussion, then I will be impressed.

To be even more fair, I'd ask you to quote what you're referring to as I have been consistent throughout, but I know that you don't like backing up sweeping statements with actual examples. So, pointless.

I have said the exact same things I always do. Religion is nuts. I find almost every expression of it, particularly at the level of the organized part of it, and the politicizing of it, obnoxious. However, individuals, even when they suffer under delusion from my point of view, can still be wonderful and worthwhile folks.

EDIT: The separation of church and state, or said using Constitutional language, the denial of establishing any religion by the government, is the primary concern. Therefore, I have to also accept the "free exercise" part of the deal as well.

Jumping back in here from Dearborn Mi...I'd like to add the largest Mosque in America is one block next to an apartment complex called the Aremenian Towers. BEHIND the Mosque itself...also less than a block...its the Catholic church St. Thomas Aquinas.

So all 3 seem perfectly content without issue to the call to prayer. May I re-iterate again, these calls are by roof mounted speakers on older storefronts converted to Muslim places of worship. Therefore...the majority of broadcasting is in neighborhoods 80-90% Muslim.

Otherwise, there would be no mosques there in the 1st place.

MS
EMT/ERT
City of Dearborn

Im not gonna waste my time refuting all the post but I will post this video which clearly states that "CHRUCH BELL' arent allowed to be played in Dearborn and Hamtramck while the Adhan is. Why? Because the police and the town are majority muslim.

The entire video illustrates my point but the bell comment starts at 5:45.

What say you now all you "freedom of religion peeps"

No Bells but Adhan Ok Video

Further since many have stated they are doing this out of a freedom of religion then why where these guys arrested for exercising their religion in public?

Christians Arrested in Dearborn 1st Amendment

So how are the two above referenced examples different then the adhan?

a reply to: sirlancelot

To clarify from a Dearborn 1st responder and not a video.... the eastern side of Dearborn is referred to as "EASTBORN", majority -middle eastern. The west side of the Southfield E-way is referred to as Dearborn's West Village, whereas its moreso 70-30 White/Muslim, and Eastborn is mostly 70-30 middle eastern/white/Anglo.

There are over 50 nationalities and dialects spoken in our city.

MS
Dearborn
West Village

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: sirlancelot

To clarify from a Dearborn 1st responder and not a video.... the eastern side of Dearborn is referred to as "EASTBORN", majority -middle eastern. The west side of the Southfield E-way is referred to as Dearborn's West Village, whereas its moreso 70-30 White/Muslim, and Eastborn is mostly 70-30 middle eastern/white/Anglo.

There are over 50 nationalities and dialects spoken in our city.

MS
Dearborn
West Village

So what. What does that have to do with the double standard Im illustrating?

originally posted by: sirlancelot
Im not gonna waste my time refuting all the post but I will post this video which clearly states that "CHRUCH BELL' arent allowed to be played in Dearborn and Hamtramck while the Adhan is. Why? Because the police and the town are majority muslim.

The entire video illustrates my point but the bell comment starts at 5:45.

What say you now all you "freedom of religion peeps"

No Bells but Adhan Ok Video

Further since many have stated they are doing this out of a freedom of religion then why where these guys arrested for exercising their religion in public?

Christians Arrested in Dearborn 1st Amendment

So how are the two above referenced examples different then the adhan?

Sorry, I stopped watching the hearsay after "I have no proof"

4:50 Is this equal right for both sides for freedom of religion?

Dearborn Video

originally posted by: scorpio84

originally posted by: sirlancelot
Im not gonna waste my time refuting all the post but I will post this video which clearly states that "CHRUCH BELL' arent allowed to be played in Dearborn and Hamtramck while the Adhan is. Why? Because the police and the town are majority muslim.

The entire video illustrates my point but the bell comment starts at 5:45.

What say you now all you "freedom of religion peeps"

No Bells but Adhan Ok Video

Further since many have stated they are doing this out of a freedom of religion then why where these guys arrested for exercising their religion in public?

Christians Arrested in Dearborn 1st Amendment

So how are the two above referenced examples different then the adhan?

Sorry, I stopped watching the hearsay after "I have no proof"

Lol thats convenient and a cop out!

a reply to: boymonkey74

No. Church bells sound once a week, if that, and they do not broadcast words. Five-times-a-day calls to Muslim prayer are not the same at all.

originally posted by: scorpio84

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: sirlancelot

What they are doing is pushing religion, and forcing everyone in hearing to listen to Muslim calls to prayer. Unless Christian prayers are also broadcast several times a day, this is clearly biased. Anyone claiming otherwise is either not paying attention, or isn't being honest.

No one forces you to listen - invest in some headphones or turn your TV up. Or just listen to it and enjoy what's called "diversity." Does listening to the call to prayer make you question your beliefs and think of becoming Muslim? "Forcing everyone to listen" - as if that were actually a bad thing to hear people being called to worship. If you don't agree with freedom of religion, feel free to leave the country.

No way!!! People should not have to go around with headphones on or a television blasting to void hearing Muslim prayer crap blasted over public loudspeakers five times a day. That's nose pollution, and defending it shows a total lack of respect for the rights of others. Churches aren't allowed to broadcast sermons fives times a day over public loudspeakers, and you and everyone else defending this Muslim stuff would throw a fit if they were. The hypocrisy is strong here.

Freedom of religion isn't freedom to blast a message to everyone in public spaces, whether they want to her it or not.

a reply to: boymonkey74

You keep claiming that church bells are ringing four times an hour, all the time where you live. I don't buy it. Post the proof, or stop making the claim. Most places don't even use bells anymore. Those that do ring them Sunday mornings only.

originally posted by: sirlancelot
Im not gonna waste my time refuting all the post but I will post this video which clearly states that "CHRUCH BELL' arent allowed to be played in Dearborn and Hamtramck while the Adhan is. Why? Because the police and the town are majority muslim.

The entire video illustrates my point but the bell comment starts at 5:45.

What say you now all you "freedom of religion peeps"

No Bells but Adhan Ok Video

Further since many have stated they are doing this out of a freedom of religion then why where these guys arrested for exercising their religion in public?

Christians Arrested in Dearborn 1st Amendment

So how are the two above referenced examples different then the adhan?

Broadcasting from a public address system is tightly regulated in Michigan's local laws, and they are allowing the adhan call to pray in both Dearborn and Hamtramck. This issue has been decided over 10 years ago now in these cities.

However, the elimination of church bell ringing is from sharia law because Islam believes that ringing a bell is satanic. If it is true that Christian churches aren't allowed to ring their bells any longer, that sounds like sharia creeping in and taking over.

If new churches are not being allowed to be built, or not allowed to make building repairs or not allowed to stand taller than a mosque, then sharia laws are certainly taking over as local ordinances. Unless higher county or state laws are enacted to specifically stop sharia based local ordinances, then it is the will of the politically active people in that community that vote these laws in.

If you want to keep your city government secular and fair to every religion, then politically fight the sharia creep and have a vocal and political majority of residents. Otherwise give up and leave until there is no place left to go to get away from new cultural influences like this. White flight syndrome has destroyed many communities in Detroit, I watched it happen growing up there.

Alright, having read through more pages of comments in defense of this travesty, I have a challenge for all defending the Muslim position here.

Would you agree to churches mounting loudspeakers, and then five times a day every single day, broadcasting various Bible verses, sermons, sentiments, and opinions? How about Christian prayers? Simpler yet, how about announcing, five times a day that Allah was Satan? It's their belief, right? Freedom of religion, right? Unless you 100% support all of that, you cannot support a Muslim call to prayer, broadcast publicly five times a day. Fair is fair.

A couple of other notes as well. For those making the claim, show proof that Christians "use the state" to force their religion on others. For those making the claim, show proof of church bells ringing several times an hour, all week long. I live in a pretty conservative area, and I literally never hear church bells. As in, never. I did now and then as a child, but even then, in a real Bible belt area, it was only Sundays, and once a day per church. Where we were, I think there were two or three we could hear. None were very loud at all, and you couldn't hear any from inside, or more than a block or two away. No voice, of course, just bells. That is nothing at all like a broadcast declaration about the Islamic god. The two are not comparable. So, stop tossing out red herrings, and show your proof, or address the actual OP already, please.

On the issue of someone coming to your door, post a sign already. A simple "no soliciting", or "no trespassing" woks just fine. When they are in the street, blasting a message over a microphone, then you have something to compare to the discussion here.

To the OP, I saw the links about the church bells not being allowed, and that's no surprise for that area! they have actually stoned Christians in public places there. Sad, and somewhat sick, that some defend this.

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

It's not "nose pollution" in Dearborn or Hamtramck MI.

It's not even noise pollution. The Call to Prayer is not broadcast at a level that is against the law.

The Call to Prayer is a part of Islamic ritual; broadcasting sermons is not a part of Christian ritual.

Do you speak Arabic? If not, there's no "message" being broadcast to you.

Are you against local determination? Do you want the Federal government to step in and adjust things to meet your standards?

As far as church bells ringing ... who cares if you believe it or not? Several of us have posted our personal statements of what we hear everyday. You're not the arbiter of ATS truth.

Allah is the Arabic word for "God", and in this case, it's the same word for the "God" that Christians who speak Arabic supposedly worship.

Are you saying that the Christian God is Satan? That's quite a trick.

Again, the Call to Prayer is and has been a historical, fundamental part of Islam.

Your contrived scenario only displays your own hateful agenda.

Here's a thought, why don't you move to Dearborn, open a Christian Church, and do what the Muslim community did back in 2004 ... take your proposal to the city Council and get their approval like the Muslim citizens did back in 2004?

a reply to: sirlancelot

Well, at least you've dropped the pretense that this thread was anything other than another anti-Islamic fear-fest.

Can you show anything from the city's websites which state that Christian church-bell ringing has been made illegal?

That is the claim, right? Show us. Surely that has made the news.

News other than "jihadiwatch.com" ...

originally posted by: sirlancelot

originally posted by: scorpio84

originally posted by: sirlancelot
Im not gonna waste my time refuting all the post but I will post this video which clearly states that "CHRUCH BELL' arent allowed to be played in Dearborn and Hamtramck while the Adhan is. Why? Because the police and the town are majority muslim.

The entire video illustrates my point but the bell comment starts at 5:45.

What say you now all you "freedom of religion peeps"

No Bells but Adhan Ok Video

Further since many have stated they are doing this out of a freedom of religion then why where these guys arrested for exercising their religion in public?

Christians Arrested in Dearborn 1st Amendment

So how are the two above referenced examples different then the adhan?

Sorry, I stopped watching the hearsay after "I have no proof"

Lol thats convenient and a cop out!

No, it's just that if you are trying to prove what you claim, do better than an interview with one person who himself admits to having no proof. Maybe some Muslims hassled him - not much different to what you are doing on this thread, is it? Furthermore, did you stop to think that maybe a Middle Eastern Christian would be biased against Muslims?

Actually, seeing what the author of the thread obviously intends here, I'll absent myself. I've provided the facts about the vote back in 2004, what the legal limitations are, why a reasonable accomodation for historical and established religious practices fall under the protection of our First Amendment and why the same Amendment prevents govenrment officials and facilities from establishing a religion.

If the Adhan were being broadcast from City Hall, some would have a point.

If you're interested in the truth go look up the actual wording of Hamtramck Ordinance 503 (the law "changed" in 2004 which was later confirmed by referendum vote) ... you will see that, indeed, it does make allowance not merely for the Adhan but also for any "other reasonable means of announcing religious services."

Source: Religion Out Loud: Religious Sound, Public Space, and American Pluralism, page 188.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

It's not "nose pollution" in Dearborn or Hamtramck MI.

Yes, it is. That their laws are pro-Muslim doesn't change the fact that this pollutes the air of everyone else there.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
It's not even noise pollution. The Call to Prayer is not broadcast at a level that is against the law.

The Call to Prayer is a part of Islamic ritual; broadcasting sermons is not a part of Christian ritual.

It isn't a "call to prayer", though; it's actually a broadcast declaration of their beliefs, which isn't the same thing at all. Many Christian churches are evangelistic, so, by your logic, they should be able to broadcast five-times-a-day announcements that Jesus is God.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Do you speak Arabic? If not, there's no "message" being broadcast to you.

Irrelevant. How about we broadcast, in Aramaic, that Jesus is God five times a day? o you think the Muslims wold like that? They can't complain.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Are you against local determination? Do you want the Federal government to step in and adjust things to meet your standards?

The standard is equal treatment, and government-approved public announcements about Allah is government-sponsored religion, which isn't legal.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
As far as church bells ringing ... who cares if you believe it or not? Several of us have posted our personal statements of what we hear everyday. You're not the arbiter of ATS truth.

Anyone who cares about the truth cares. Those discussing this Islamic proselytization can prove it's happening. If you want to clai something similar, offer the proof as well.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Allah is the Arabic word for "God", and in this case, it's the same word for the "God" that Christians who speak Arabic supposedly worship.

It's a word for their deity. Theirs is not the same as mine. We do not follow the same God, and claiming that some use the term who are Christian isn't being honest. Any Muslim would disagree with you that the Christian using the term, in regard to Jesus, was talking about the same deity.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Are you saying that the Christian God is Satan? That's quite a trick.

Never claimed anything close to that. Pretending that I did is rather silly.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Again, the Call to Prayer is and has been a historical, fundamental part of Islam.

Then they can get an app for that, and have it call their cell phones. No one else needs to hear it.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Your contrived scenario only displays your own hateful agenda.

Which scenario? I listed several. Be specific. Truth isn't hateful. Do you really want to discuss agendas? Remember what they say about those who live in glass houses.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Here's a thought, why don't you move to Dearborn, open a Christian Church, and do what the Muslim community did back in 2004 ... take your proposal to the city Council and get their approval like the Muslim citizens did back in 2004?

Here's a thought - how about you apply the same attitude you display toward all things Christian to this situation, toward the Muslims, instead of posting a clear double standard?

Where I live, or have lived, or might live, isn't your concern. You're on thin ice there.