Religious indoctrination of children should be outlawed

a reply to: Prezbo369

THERE'S NO SUCH THING!!+

To be Secular means to have nothing of a religious basis involved, it's the absence of religion.

First it was a joke. Second indoctrination is a matter of perception. If I had kids, and taught them that God loved them and died on the cross for their sins and that was the actual truth behind reality it would not be indoctrination it would simply be me teaching my kids the truth. We can flip that around and say if I had kids and taught them God wasn't real and that they should love simply because its what seems to promote the most human flourishing and that was the actual truth behind reality it would't be indoctrination. The point is anything you teach your kid can be called indoctrination within a particular ideology.

While TheInhumanCentiped was being a bit extreme, I do agree in principle that to pass on your supernatural and baseless superstitions to your child as an authority is at the detriment to the child.

And teaching your child that they are just bags of chemicals fizzing around the earth, with no true intrinsic value is at the detriment to that child, and that the Creator of the universe doesn't exist is a detriment to the child. You seem to see an issue with one way but don't seem to see how it can be turned right back around on you.

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. You can do the following with any secular idea just as easy as you can a religious idea. For example, you are dismissive of Christianity and have no true knowledge of the teachings. So I assume if you have kids they will eventually be that way as well thanks to your secular indoctrination.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369

First it was a joke. Second indoctrination is a matter of perception. If I had kids, and taught them that God loved them and died on the cross for their sins and that was the actual truth behind reality it would not be indoctrination it would simply be me teaching my kids the truth.

Your truth indeed, but it would have to include a very poor standard of evidence and a almost complete absence of critical thinking to allow the acceptance the most outrageous of claims. Then depending on your own particular theology the threat of hell and eternal punishment, constant guilt, constant surveillance as well as the idea that someone else taking punishment for your crimes is a good thing. All of which are undeniably at the determent to the child.

We can flip that around and say if I had kids and taught them God wasn't real and that they should love simply because its what seems to promote the most human flourishing and that was the actual truth behind reality it would't be indoctrination. The point is anything you teach your kid can be called indoctrination within a particular ideology.

That's a false dichotomy as that's not the only other option to a religious indoctrination. Teaching children to think critically and then allowing them to find their own path is a more accurate alternative. Very very few people teach their children that there is no such thing as gods.

And teaching your child that they are just bags of chemicals fizzing around the earth, with no true intrinsic value is at the detriment to that child, and that the Creator of the universe doesn't exist is a detriment to the child. You seem to see an issue with one way but don't seem to see how it can be turned right back around on you.

Do you really think non religious people teach their children this? that they have no true intrinsic value? Do you teach your children they true intrinsic value without your god?....

You're creating quite the strawman with this kind of rhetoric...

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. You can do the following with any secular idea just as easy as you can a religious idea. For example, you are dismissive of Christianity and have no true knowledge of the teachings. So I assume if you have kids they will eventually be that way as well thanks to your secular indoctrination.

I'm sure you think i have no true knowledge of the 'teachings', how could i not believe otherwise right? But yeah my kids probably wont be Christians, or Muslims, Hindus, Scientologists etc etc. Its possible they could be involved in one of those collections of superstitions and myths, but unlikely.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Your truth indeed, but it would have to include a very poor standard of evidence and a almost complete absence of critical thinking to allow the acceptance the most outrageous of claims.

There is no such thing as my truth and your truth. Truth is what it is. I would say your position is based on a lack of critical thinking and a poor standard of evidence . I mean we can throw ad hominems at each other all day that wont get us anywhere.

That's a false dichotomy as that's not the only other option to a religious indoctrination. Teaching children to think critically and then allowing them to find their own path is a more accurate alternative

I didn't say it was, but there are people who teach their kids that and that would be a form of secular indoctrination if that wasn't a true statement. You are ignoring the original point here.

Do you really think non religious people teach their children this? that they have no true intrinsic value? Do you teach your children they true intrinsic value without your god?...

No I don't think they tell their children that bluntly. That is simply what your stuck with on a secular world view, which is why I would say your world view is based on a lack of critical thinking skills.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369
There is no such thing as my truth and your truth. Truth is what it is. I would say your position is based on a lack of critical thinking and a poor standard of evidence . I mean we can throw ad hominems at each other all day that wont get us anywhere.

In regards to the unfalsifiable claim for the existence of god/s, yeah there's what you perceive to be the truth, your truth.

You can throw out the terms 'a lack of critical thinking and a poor standard of evidence' and 'ad hominems' but without them having any relevance to my comment its a bit silly and a waste of time. It's almost asthough you have a different idea as to what those terms actually mean.

I didn't say it was, but there are people who teach their kids that and that would be a form of secular indoctrination if that wasn't a true statement. You are ignoring the original point here.

You presented only two options.....and as I said there are a lot more than that. And as I also told you 'Secular' has no bearing on the truth of religions claims, its merely the absence of religion and as such the point you were attempting to make was a fallacy.

No I don't think they tell their children that bluntly. That is simply what your stuck with on a secular world view, which is why I would say your world view is based on a lack of critical thinking skills.

This is more of the strawman you're building, you have a mistaken idea about what secular actually means and you then go on to tell anyone that isn't religious what they believe......and you're using that term again.....incorrectly.

Critical Thinking Skills

a reply to: Prezbo369

In regards to the unfalsifiable claim for the existence of god/s, yeah there's what you perceive to be the truth, your truth.

There are plenty of ways to falsify my religion. Show a true honest to God contradiction in the Bible, rather than a difference in perspectives on the same event. Show that historically Jesus wasn't a miracle worker, that he didn't die on the cross, and that he wasn't seen by many people after his supposed death on the cross. Do those things and Christianity falls.

You presented only two options.....and as I said there are a lot more than that. And as I also told you 'Secular' has no bearing on the truth of religions claims, its merely the absence of religion and as such the point you were attempting to make was a fallacy.

Yes and one of those points was a form of secular indoctrination. Your statement was that no such thing existed yet I showed you one and you even conceded that some people do teach their kids that God doesn't exist. So there ya go. Point proven.

This is more of the strawman you're building, you have a mistaken idea about what secular actually means and you then go on to tell anyone that isn't religious what they believe......and you're using that term again.....incorrectly.

You have got to be kidding me. If you can't see that a intellectually consistent secular world view leads one moral nihilism then you lack critical thinking skills . You lack the ability to analyze and critique your own world view. I swear talking to you is like talking to a 15 year old...

a reply to: TheInhumanCentipede

Religious indoctrination of children should be outlawed

Indoctrination?

We live in an age where indoctrination exists at every level. Political, racial/ethnic, social... and yes, religious. But, parents have a job and that is to raise their children in a way they best see fitting. Once anyone seeks to take that natural task away, then parenthood is crap-canned and you have nothing left but officially approved state indoctrination left to fall back upon... which is just about where we are at already.

The moment parenthood is stripped of the rights to raise a child as the parents see fit... whether everyone agrees or not, we become a species of pre-programmed biological robots, each loaded with identical operating systems that leave nothing for the human spirit to grasp but vast emptiness.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369
There are plenty of ways to falsify my religion. Show a true honest to God contradiction in the Bible, rather than a difference in perspectives on the same event. Show that historically Jesus wasn't a miracle worker, that he didn't die on the cross, and that he wasn't seen by many people after his supposed death on the cross. Do those things and Christianity falls.

If I were to show that the christian collection of superstitions were false and untrue, it wouldn't then show that there are no such thing as gods....as that claim is unfalsifiable....

Yes and one of those points was a form of secular indoctrination. Your statement was that no such thing existed yet I showed you one and you even conceded that some people do teach their kids that God doesn't exist. So there ya go. Point proven.

The only point that was proven was your inability to accept that Secularism has no standing on the validity of the claims made by theists, as ive said a few times now its merely the absence of religion.....

You have got to be kidding me. If you can't see that a intellectually consistent secular world view leads one moral nihilism then you lack critical thinking skills . You lack the ability to analyze and critique your own world view. I swear talking to you is like talking to a 15 year old...

There you go again telling other people what they believe as it's the only possible alternative you can think of. An argument from ignorance if you will. And to top if off you add an actual ad hominem......a strong sign of a failed argument.

a reply to: Prezbo369

If I were to show that the christian collection of superstitions were false and untrue, it wouldn't then show that there are no such thing as gods....as that claim is unfalsifiable...

Nor did I say it would. I said it would falsify my claims. I don't believe in a generic idea of a God, I believe in a particular God.

The only point that was proven was your inability to accept that Secularism has no standing on the validity of the claims made by theists, as ive said a few times now its merely the absence of religion..

Your point? The word indoctrination does not only apply to religious ideologies ....

There you go again telling other people what they believe as it's the only possible alternative you can think of. An argument from ignorance if you will. And to top if off you add an actual ad hominem......a strong sign of a failed argument.

If you think I am wrong please provide a position on which morals can actually exist rather than just being illusionary concepts humans choose to adhere to from a secular stand point.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Prezbo369
If you think I am wrong please provide a position on which morals can actually exist rather than just being illusionary concepts humans choose to adhere to from a secular stand point.

Well there's the moving of the goal posts.....par for the course and yet another sign of a failed argument.

a reply to: Prezbo369

I didn't move the goal post? I simply just phrased the statement I made into a question. Is English your native language?