Limitations of thought?

i cant seem to make sense of what i am thinking when someone asks me what i am thinking or if i try to explain my emotions.

My thinking is all or mostly visual. I was born with it and have a powerful visual memory, almost as strong as someone with photo memory. I can go in a building maybe 2-3 times and be able to draw a blueprint of that building and be 90% accurate. My imagination is very strong and i use visual pictures for my mathematics aswell as language i guess. I can easily draw maps of areas ive been in with roads, fields etc. Im glad my mind can do these tbings but its also a curse as some bad memories i really dont want to remember and i can visually see it in my minds eye over and over again. But where my skills excell in the visual department they plummed in the words department. What i mean is i can visually spell many words as i see tnem in my brain, what i mean is i can remember visually a street ive been down a few times but never its name. Im good with faces, crap with names if you get me?

I do one of two processes (or more accurately two different ways of going through the same process)-

1 - I talk to myself. I let myself sense my deepest images, ideas and feelings arising on the subject.
No matter whether I can see the connection, right away, or whether I think they are rational, or good, or have any association to each other.

Then I put into words (outloud even) the most essential base I am picking up from that. Without moral judgement.
This is usually a statement upon my subjective stance to the issue -"I don't feel comfortable with this thing" type of acknowledgement. I have to be terribly honest with myself here; it is where I pin point my personal bias.

I explain to myself why I feel the way I do, and provide arguments for that stance.

Then....I take the part of the other side, and poke holes in my own arguments, point out inconsistancies, fallicies.... expose alternate points of views.

Then I usually drop it and get busy doing something else. Later, if I think about it again, there is an internal subconscious arbitrator who seems to work in the dark basement of my mind, because up comes a new view, which is often a product of this earlier process, and combines the two points of view.


2- I do this process with other people.
Either in person, or online, I let the brainstorm arise (those are the convoluted, confusing and verbiose posts or talking)

Then (usually when the person is asking "WTF do you mean??"
I state the more simplified and personal base it is coming from (usually why I am concerned with this issue, what it means to me, my relationship to it).

Then I lay down an argument with a bit more stucture.

And the other person plays the antithesis role, poking holes in my reasoning, showing me where it is underdeveloped, etc.

We go back and forth for a while, doing this, then bow respectfully and thank each other for the exchange.

Later, my mind comes up with a new product of that exchange.


Actually sometimes they aren't good at seeing the holes, and I have to fight the urge to say "you could have pointed out this mistake I just did!" But I do point it out to myself, in my head. Sometimes they seem to think it is some sort of race and get caught up in "winning" so the respectful and kind parting isn't what happens. But when it does, it is more comfortable for everyone, I think.

I sometimes feel I need the spark of creativity from others. Such exchanges give me new material to work with - to insights, new styles.
Even when I am doing this process alone, my voice of "other" who challenges my personal view is formed largely by the myriad of other personalities I have encountered in my life. It can always use awareness of different approaches!

a reply to: Rhodin

The trouble with pinning down the reality of thought, how it is initiated, conceptualised, and managed, is that no two brains work entirely the same way. Men and women are wired up differently in the main, and within those two subsets there are yet more variances. Artistic versus clinical, ephemeral versus technical, chaos versus order, and so on and so forth.

Now, me personally, I believe that thought has no limit, that minds of a particular construction can conceptualise anything, imagine anything, no matter the scale, from the most enormous things one could possibly name, to the smallest things one could ever have thought possible. Also, I do not form thought linguistically. Thought happens, nebulous, vaporous, and I find words to give it meaning afterward. I have no idea if that is a common trait, or a strange one, but it is how I tend to operate.

However, it does mean that I believe that thought has no limit, no outer edge, is not finite in scope.

originally posted by: TrueBritThought happens, nebulous, vaporous, and I find words to give it meaning afterward. I have no idea if that is a common trait, or a strange one, but it is how I tend to operate.

There's actually some empirical research on this. The authors hold that this kind of thinking is very common, but also not often recognised because people tend to assume that their thinking happens in the same languages they use to speak out loud. They write:

"Unsymbolized thinking occurred in 22% of all sampled experiences. However, within subjects the frequency of unsymbolized thinking ranged from 0% to 80%; 8 of the 30 subjects had no unsymbolized thinking in any of their samples. The median frequency of unsymbolized thinking across subjects was 25%, but more than 25% of subjects (8 of 30) had no unsymbolized thinking at all. So while unsymbolized thinking is very common, it is not omnipresent."

a reply to: FlyingPilchard

I am going to show that to my dad. We have had a long standing disagreement on that.

He insists that his thoughts arise in a symbolic form, usually verbal. Like the word "apple" arises first in mind,
whereas I experience an unformed sensation instead, perhaps sensual memory from the past mixed with current sensations, Or something.

I then search to identify and conceptualize it with words or image symbols. But that is secondary.

It seems obvious to me our minds work differently... it is neat to see studies focusing on the question.

As far as I'm aware there is a direct and proven link between's one's vocabulary/(more specifically, language) and one's thought process.

As far as how I "think"... It's quite hard to describe. Non-linear? Let's consider a particular thought process as a rectangle made up of ten squares from left to right (like | | | | | | | | | | |, but with lines at the top and bottom too.)

Now, in my case, I'll usually start at square one, but (and here's the interesting thing) I've already reached the conclusion. It just takes some time for my English vocabulary or mind's eye to actually catch up to my brain's processes. It takes a lot of concentration and it doesn't always work, but I can skip from step one to step ten. Usually once you start thinking something, you've already decided on what the ending of that thought will be. It just takes a while for you to "catch up".

a reply to: Rhodin

I often use the old 'dialog' method, the 'train of thought', not for it's efficiency, but for it's classic charm and feel-good machinations! Thought/imagination is ego, and the intellectuals are always 'whackin' it!

If I really need an answer to a problem, I just punch it into the Universe/Consciousness and 'stand back' (turn off the 'train')!
It all comes fully formed, as 'intuition', and is never 'wrong'!

a reply to: intrptr
Oh I wish my memory was photographic, no by movies I simply mean daydreaming, though I do sometimes replay movies when I'm bored.
At the moment I'm designing a quasi-class 3 Trimaran hull & I can visualize the hull as it passes through the water & how I expect the weight & planing to affect it, that's how I use most of my internal imagery.

I agree totally with your recording theorem.
I also believe that those images & unremembered memories make up part of who we become, so I'm "choosy" about what my minds eye ingests.

K~

a reply to: aethertek

I also believe that those images & unremembered memories make up part of who we become, so I'm "choosy" about what my minds eye ingests.

Absolutely, same here. Except, I think what we learn here is more like books on a shelf. Not so much 'us' as data to pull from. What we didn't learn somebody else did, we can share.

Neither will the memories of exactly whom did what to whom down here be forgotten.

People will get justice…

a reply to: intrptr

True but in some instances that "data" is pulled & used in opposition to our reality so the less ammo they have the better.
That & some of my "data" is pretty %$&%$ horrific so I wish I didn't carry it.

People will get justice…

Yea let's hope so but I've found creation to be pretty damn neutral about that whole "justice" equation.
Me, I just want my shot at revenge at those that imprisoned me here.
Like I tell the religulous, "I hope there's a God just so I can knock Him in His mouth next time I see Him"

K~

a reply to: aethertek

Yea let's hope so but I've found creation to be pretty damn neutral about that whole "justice" equation.

The world isn't over yet, be patient.

Me, I just want my shot at revenge at those that imprisoned me here.

An eye blink in eternity. You're not a prisoner except in your mind, Unless I'm reading this wrong, then forgive me.

The womb was but nine months prior to a lifetime here. This lifetime is but a gestation preparing us for the next.

Dying to this one, being reborn in the next, everyone does it.

I know, easy to say. I don't know what you mean by prisoner, I been a prisoner of others use and abuse my whole life.

I'm currently grateful to be indoors, warm and dry. Those who have less are more appreciative of what they got,

Sorry for preaching.

Gotta go, check this thread later, glad to have met you on this level.

The world isn't over yet, be patient.

Oh the "world" has been here a long long time & will remain long after we've both moved on to other realms.

An eye blink in eternity. You're not a prisoner except in your mind, Unless I'm reading this wrong, then forgive me.

Oh my mind is free but it's still been trapped in this stinking decaying carcass forced to observe humanity in all its hubris & undeserved glory.

The womb was but nine months prior to a lifetime here. This lifetime is but a gestation preparing us for the next.

Bah, the womb is but the mechanics of delivery & lifetimes may be counted in but one persona.

Dying to this one, being reborn in the next, everyone does it.

Been there done that.

I know, easy to say. I don't know what you mean by prisoner, I been a prisoner of others use and abuse my whole life.

Sincerely sorry to hear, I hope you have better circumstances now.
I think the worst I ever had were the times when I was beaten (so were they LOL) & chained to a slab of concrete for days.

I'm currently grateful to be indoors, warm and dry. Those who have less are more appreciative of what they got,

Me too.

Sorry for preaching.

No apologies required I've rambled so far off topic I expect mod intervention.

Gotta go, check this thread later, glad to have met you on this level.

Oh Thank You, I enjoyed the sharing as well.
K~

This has been very informative for me. It was just a silly thought I had in mind and I'm pleased that so many people took the time to share their methods here. I understand we all do things differently, I was mostly curious as to how differently pondered about things as well as if their were certain benefits to using different techniques.

Also glad to see people meeting new people and chatting.

a reply to: Rhodin

Back to limitations of thought. As denizens of the third dimension our thoughts bounce against a wall we can't see through yet.

Just like 2 D people don't understand 'up', we as 3D people have trouble wrapping our mind around infinity, eternity, forever, those kinds of things. How far is it to the end of the Universe?

How far is endless? How old is that? When did it start? Our minds want to place limits on these questions, we want to draw a picture and frame it, claiming things are this big and no bigger, they had a beginning and will have an end. Before everything there was nothing.

Ha ha… then there is no eternity, infinity or forever.

2D people get laughed at when one of the flatlanders says theres an "up", too.