I Think I Just Figured Out How the Pyramids Were Made

a reply to: Battlefresh

The stone that was quarried for the pyramids is quite soft when it is first cut out. It hardens
on exposure to air. No need for cement.

The lower portion which contains the majority of the material was built with ramps.
The upper part was done with levers. There is even a hieroglyph for the lever used.

originally posted by: Battlefresh
They would have needed a large mold for that. Let's see...how about the boxes in the Queen and King's chamber scholars refer to as sarcophagus'? The average granite block in the pyramids depending on where you read is 1.2m X 1.2m X .7m. The inside dimensions of the sarcophagus' is 2m x .9m x .7m which also varies between sources. I say it's close enough as perhaps more than 1 stone was made at a time,

So you're an engineer huh? Then you will know that "close enough" is not acceptable.

originally posted by: skybolt
How can a civilization possess such knowledge and ingenuity to construct something as precise from a structural and geotechnical standpoint, but too stupid to think of inventing more useful advanced tools?! You mean to tell me that the ancient engineers sat there at the Giza Plateau and laid out the perfect construction techniques where the basalt floor was all aligned within a few inches across the entire base, small shafts constructed within the structure with precise lengths and widths, and 50 ton granite blocks positioned inside the Pyramid itself (not to mention all the mathematical complexities), but were too stupid to invent the wheel?!

Are you under the impression that the AE's didn't know the wheel?

Also, what sort of "more useful advanced tools" should they have invented?

All their tools had to be hand-operated, or are you faulting construction engineers with not coming up with electric motors?

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: skybolt
How can a civilization possess such knowledge and ingenuity to construct something as precise from a structural and geotechnical standpoint, but too stupid to think of inventing more useful advanced tools?! You mean to tell me that the ancient engineers sat there at the Giza Plateau and laid out the perfect construction techniques where the basalt floor was all aligned within a few inches across the entire base, small shafts constructed within the structure with precise lengths and widths, and 50 ton granite blocks positioned inside the Pyramid itself (not to mention all the mathematical complexities), but were too stupid to invent the wheel?!

Are you under the impression that the AE's didn't know the wheel?

Also, what sort of "more useful advanced tools" should they have invented?

All their tools had to be hand-operated, or are you faulting construction engineers with not coming up with electric motors?

Harte

Nope, just similar technology to for instance what the Romans had. I think hand operated giant circular metal saws and things of that nature. I'm not talking about 20th century or beyond technology here. I personally don't believe the ancient Egyptian engineers would've gone to so much trouble perfectly aligning all the inner chambers and the base of the pyramid in case the pharaoh decided to perform a hand inspection with a measuring tape climbing up the shaft. The latter dynasty Egyptians didn't seem to care much about precision, so why was it important in the old kingdom?

Hmmmm....

Aliens?

Harte

Firstly, to the OP, the pyramids were not created before the "invention" of the wheel.

A lot of people like to compare, as a kind of joke, to the invention of the wheel when discussing some other invention, but the wheel is not an invention. Round objects can be found in nature. If anyone ever cut down a tree for timber (or even lumber now that I think about it), they found out quite quickly that round objects roll. Anyone who had held a pebble could have tossed it and watched it roll. They were not inundated with entertainment the same way we are. Any number of people would have quickly realized the utility of that aspect of nature.

Hmm... as an engineer, that should have occurred to you.

Also, I did the math. For 2.1 million blocks to be laid over the course of 20 years, then a block must be set every 3.75 minutes, or every 3 minutes and 45 seconds. I assumed that there was a 6 hour rest period on average where building ceased per day. Check my math y'all.

To me, it seems that this is completely reasonable. I don't know why anyone thinks this is astounding. The Pharaoh orders a work to be done and people do it. Simple. I don't know how many people were involved, but I think it is not hard to believe that if the building were to be examined by leaders of four corners, then we can say 4 major teams that would require a goal of setting a block every 15 minutes each, rotating around the teams in succession. Then there should be sets of teams which serve each corner (or side) team that would prepare the blocks for the lift and the setting. So therefore, it seems to me easy to consider that an army of no less than two thousand men, each thousand alternating 9 or 10 hour shifts (with time for food), could easily set a stone every 3 minutes and 45 seconds with each team holding its weight to add a stone every 15 minutes.

I think that the engineering feat is not the major feat here.

It is the organizational feat to maintain this for 20 years straight. Everyone wants to know the technological marvel, but really, the miracle was entirely the power of the organizer in this case, to me.

P.S. - it only gets easier if one assumes two teams per corner, by the way... if that somehow escapes anyone.

a reply to: Battlefresh

Granite is an igneous rock. It is formed from slow cooling magma chambers a long way below the crust for a very long time. It does not form concretions. Concretions are formed by sedimentary rocks. So no, the pyramids were not formed by creating granite "bricks"

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
I don't know how many people were involved, but I think it is not hard to believe that if the building were to be examined by leaders of four corners, then we can say 4 major teams that would require a goal of setting a block every 15 minutes each, rotating around the teams in succession. Then there should be sets of teams which serve each corner (or side) team that would prepare the blocks for the lift and the setting. So therefore, it seems to me easy to consider that an army of no less than two thousand men, each thousand alternating 9 or 10 hour shifts (with time for food), could easily set a stone every 3 minutes and 45 seconds with each team holding its weight to add a stone every 15 minutes.

Yes indeed... but you need to expand your figure to 200-300 teams of 50-100 men each. Working on all the sides at once.

It should be pointed out that the 2.5 million block figure comes from taking the average sized block and calculating the entire volume of the GP, then dividing that by the volume of that average block.

As we know today that the pyramid is anything but solid, this analysis is erroneous.

Also, there exists the remains of a small hill inside the GP that takes up some of that volume.

Largish voids filled with rubble and gobs of mortar have been found in the interior of the GP, and the central core consists of stones of multiple different sizes, mortared together in a rather hodge-podge fashion.

IOW, nobody can say how many stones are in the GP. And what can be said is that in the core these stones were not dressed into rectangular shapes.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
Hmmmm....

Aliens?

Harte

No need for aliens or even past forgotten civilizations. My biggest question is why were the great pyramids built to such scale and precision for pharaohs in the old kingdom, but a thousand of years later very crude structures were erected instead, which not only lacked scale, but the technique and precision you'd expect was passed down from the old kingdom? Let me put it another way, if I was the lead engineer in the old kingdom and the pharaoh asked me to construct a large tomb for his afterlife, which not only looked magnificent from the outside but also form the inside. I think we can all agree that this request makes sense. However, what doesn't make sense to me is why such perfect precision and mathematical connotation required for this task? Did the engineer have to make sure that the basalt base of the pyramid was leveled to within 1/2 inch of depth, and the inner chambers aligned and measured perfectly all the way across? It just seems odd to me that a pharaoh would request pinpoint accuracy when it wasn't really required to make the structure look so impressive to the naked eye. For instance, as a Civil Engineer, since we have develop our plan drawings with measurements provided to the nearest hundredth, the design application takes 3 or 4 more times longer than if we just made it look good (not to mention the time saved in construction if the workers did not have to worry about aligning the basalt floor to such accuracy).

Now moving 1,000 years into the future I can certainly understand economic, social and political reasons why the structures constructed for the pharaohs lacked the scale and breadth as their ancestors. However, what I don't understand is where the accuracy and mathematical aligning went? I don't buy the reasoning of yeah, they could build these structures to perfect alignment but chose to construct crude looking structures using mud bricks instead. Now if this scenario only occurred in ancient Egypt I'd call it an anomaly, but when we see it all over the world where the previous builders were much more skilled, we have to step back and look at this as one giant puzzle. The questions has to be asked what happened in the past where every single civilization (or region) devolved in their construction techniques and precision, instead of the opposite occurring.

You might go to such trouble were you building God's tomb. And he was watching you.

Harte

originally posted by: donktheclown
a reply to: Battlefresh

If they could manufacture stone on site then that would cut down the construction time considerably.

Even faster to pour a single level at a time, why blocks? Make a mold, pour, disassemble mold, remove a few mold components and you have the next mold. Repeat.

you would have a solid pyramid not one made of individual blocks. if it IS ever proven the blocks were made separately in molds and then put in place, that would be even more evidence of aliens. because there's no way to get such symmetry and alignment unless your molds are consistently shaped and yer not gonna git that with boards and rope.

originally posted by: bottleslingguy

originally posted by: donktheclown
a reply to: Battlefresh

If they could manufacture stone on site then that would cut down the construction time considerably.

Even faster to pour a single level at a time, why blocks? Make a mold, pour, disassemble mold, remove a few mold components and you have the next mold. Repeat.

you would have a solid pyramid not one made of individual blocks. if it IS ever proven the blocks were made separately in molds and then put in place, that would be even more evidence of aliens. because there's no way to get such symmetry and alignment unless your molds are consistently shaped and yer not gonna git that with boards and rope.

Why would such advanced construction engineers build a separate mold for every single block?

Look:



The idea of molding stone isn't a very good one when you decide to build one mold per stone.

Harte

originally posted by: Byrd

Yes indeed... but you need to expand your figure to 200-300 teams of 50-100 men each. Working on all the sides at once.

Yes, I do. lol.

In entertaining time, I neglected to entertain weight. But indeed I was merely trying to point out that the feat itself is not only possible... but obvious, because, behold, There it is!

lol.

Thanks Byrd.

originally posted by: Battlefresh
.... and I really could care less if you did.

Ok. So that means you actually *do* care? But, if you tried, you could care even less than your current state of caring.

Or, did you mean you *couldn't* care less, as in, you are already at your maximum level of uncaring and it is physically impossible for you to care any less than you do now?

I said "if" and again if the stones can be proven to have been made with water and aggregate AND they are all different sizes (which they are) then that would be about the most impossible way to build it = aliens


a reply to: Harte

Ahem...

Limestone is made naturally with water and an aggregate - is limestone alien?

Harte

Hmm, an interesting theory, but as has been shown, against the evidence.

I suppose what you've mentioned could be related though. According to the legend Khufu had to consult the priests at... Heliopolis, was it? for help on building to that scale. They had "magic" (science) that was of some use. Perhaps they mixed some sort of compound that helped smooth edges or something? Like what Fawcett supposedly described as "softening rocks" with strange leaves in South America.

we make concrete buildings now.
and we Think we do it the best, no!
do you know that the mortar that holds the
old stone for some of the farm walls in england
is a lot stronger that modern morter.

the Egyptions made the blocks with a concrete mix.
some thing way beyond what we can to day.

the romans stole all that they lernt.
they marched in and took it with a big army.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta

originally posted by: Byrd

Yes indeed... but you need to expand your figure to 200-300 teams of 50-100 men each. Working on all the sides at once.

Yes, I do. lol.

In entertaining time, I neglected to entertain weight. But indeed I was merely trying to point out that the feat itself is not only possible... but obvious, because, behold, There it is!

lol.

Thanks Byrd.

Heh. Something else I saw in Egypt that would be of interest is that in Karnak there are still parts of old mud brick ramps that were used to construct the pylons and the columns themselves.

You can see one such at the picture at the bottom of this long page: dlib.etc.ucla.edu...

And the second picture on this page: discoveringegypt.com...

I saw this structure recently and was amazed at how big it is even after all these centuries. I was told by the guide (who's well educated with a university degree in history) that the mud brick was taken down and reused in enclosure walls for the temple - that it didn't go to waste but was instead a double purpose thing.

There's a LOT of mud brick around Giza, and it's not impossible that this was an ancient technique and the Egyptians just reused the brick for the ramps. During the flood season, the Nile was literally at the doorstep of the pyramids and mud bricks (that sun dry in 3 days) can be made by the thousands by just one man.