Atheists object to Christmas toy drive on Air Force base – and win

a reply to: Shamrock6

So they can't?

If a Muslim dropped a toy into the Toys for Tots box, you'd reject it?

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I wore the uniform, before morals were outlawed. Don't BS us older folks. Even the President uses people in unform, to stand behind him, to push his "non-belief" ideas and garbage on us. You can't argue against right, belief and faith. Which is what made this country. With your argument. The military needs to disband thier Chaplain Corps. ... America has come to a head. Go left or right? You're spewing BS. We've been left so long. We don't even understand right.

You really are brain washed aren't you, this has nothing to do with Christians, Christmas, kids or toys, it has to do with a woman that violated the ethics provision within her contract with the federal government. Short and sweet, she did wrong, not the first time, her employment should be terminated.

a reply to: BubbaJoe

So we've shifted the goalposts from endorsement of religion to violating ethics now that you've all realized just exactly how mean-spirited this makes you look?

Pay no attention to the reality that we're arguing against people helping with a charity that distributes toys to the needy at Christmas, we're really arguing a technicality ...

a reply to: ketsuko

Keep plugging away. Maybe if you keep acting like you're only responding to something I've said, I might forget what I said!

Pro-tip: making it up as you go isn't really a stellar technique for debate. Pretending I said something in a sad, sad effort to score some stars and shift the focus away from a woman blatantly violating DoD email policy is pretty weak.

But hey, bang away at that drum. Enjoy the one sided conversation you seem to be having. I can't be arsed to defend something I never said.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I wore the uniform, before morals were outlawed. Don't BS us older folks. Even the President uses people in unform, to stand behind him, to push his "non-belief" ideas and garbage on us. You can't argue against right, belief and faith. Which is what made this country. With your argument. The military needs to disband thier Chaplain Corps. ... America has come to a head. Go left or right? You're spewing BS. We've been left so long. We don't even understand right.

. . . it has to do with a woman that violated the ethics provision within her contract with the federal government. Short and sweet, she did wrong, not the first time, her employment should be terminated.

Facts?

Not emotional excuses?

Shocking!

originally posted by: ketsuko

So we've shifted the goalposts from endorsement of religion to violating ethics now that you've all realized just exactly how mean-spirited this makes you look?

No one has shifted the goalposts.

It's been a Separate Church and State issue from the beginning

It's okay to be an atheist, that's cool! And can be "tolorated" in uniform, you can "support that all day long. But believe in God/Christ... And it's "you can't do that in uniform". .. Tell me agian when seperation of church and freedom begains? I'm 100% sure the Air Force funds Chaplains on atheist tax dollars as well as believers.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I wore the uniform, before morals were outlawed. Don't BS us older folks. Even the President uses people in unform, to stand behind him, to push his "non-belief" ideas and garbage on us. You can't argue against right, belief and faith. Which is what made this country. With your argument. The military needs to disband thier Chaplain Corps. ... America has come to a head. Go left or right? You're spewing BS. We've been left so long. We don't even understand right.

. . . it has to do with a woman that violated the ethics provision within her contract with the federal government. Short and sweet, she did wrong, not the first time, her employment should be terminated.

Facts?

Not emotional excuses?

Shocking!

But...but...

Think of the children!!

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: dawnstar

That's fine if the employer doesn't, but I was a teacher (a government job). There were no rules against laying out our kids' fundraisers in the lounge for anyone who might want to buy.

So, was that endorsement of religion if your kids went to religious school, After all, not only was it happening on a government place of employment, but the money paying for it was tax dollars - double violation of the separation clause according to many here.

You make a lot of really odd assumptions, in the military there is a chain of command, that is a wee bit different than the civilian world, for example, if I was an E3 and my E7 branch chief came to me and said that I should buy girl scout cookies from his daughter, as opposed to the daughter of my E6 section chief, I would be between a rock and a hard place, and god forbid the colonel had a daughter.

The other thing, once that money moved from the Government's bank account to mine, it was my money. If I chose to donate it to the FSM, it was not the government supporting a religion.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I wore the uniform, before morals were outlawed. Don't BS us older folks. Even the President uses people in unform, to stand behind him, to push his "non-belief" ideas and garbage on us. You can't argue against right, belief and faith. Which is what made this country. With your argument. The military needs to disband thier Chaplain Corps. ... America has come to a head. Go left or right? You're spewing BS. We've been left so long. We don't even understand right.

. . . it has to do with a woman that violated the ethics provision within her contract with the federal government. Short and sweet, she did wrong, not the first time, her employment should be terminated.

Facts?

Not emotional excuses?

Shocking!

But...but...

Think of the children!!

Yeah! I have some of them.

Screw the Constitution.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: BubbaJoe

So we've shifted the goalposts from endorsement of religion to violating ethics now that you've all realized just exactly how mean-spirited this makes you look?

Pay no attention to the reality that we're arguing against people helping with a charity that distributes toys to the needy at Christmas, we're really arguing a technicality ...

I have never shifted my goalposts, this has been my stance through all 20 whatever pages of this thread, maybe you need to take a long look in the mirror?

a reply to: BubbaJoe

You seem shallow. You can't "contract" belief or a "political" view. With your mindset, every Military Chaplain "violated" thier outh and "Commission" as officers and should be "lelieved of duty". For not "Seperating Church and State" Don't play stupid with me. I was/am a Soldier and I believe.

a reply to: murphy22

Well if they were sending out emails on a gov't computer about the goddess Gaia giving us salvation and inviting us to an event that would include praying to her, that would be crossing the line also....

Beliefs and such are the domain of the religions, and as such, the gov't shouldn't be interferring with them unless they start infringing on others....
National and International policies, laws, and civil administration is in the domain of gov't and well, religion shouldn't be interferring with them...
now, if religion is doing their job right, then the people will hold the moral values taught by the religion and it will show within the gov't. but I don't see that as what is happening at the present time. I see a religion that is failing in their job and therefore whining to the gov't hoping that they will enforce those moral values onto the people, who quite frankly disagree with many of them.

kill all the believers, nope don't want that, try again....
but at the same time you can't force those who don't believe to act like they do! you can slap white robes and angel wings onto a bunch of sinners, but it won't make they angels!

a reply to: murphy22

actually, in one of the links, they did mention the chaplains as being the appropriate source for an email such as this....
just not the secretary of the commander.

originally posted by: murphy22
It's okay to be an atheist, that's cool! And can be "tolorated" in uniform, you can "support that all day long. But believe in God/Christ... And it's "you can't do that in uniform". .. Tell me agian when seperation of church and freedom begains? I'm 100% sure the Air Force funds Chaplains on atheist tax dollars as well as believers.

Tell me again how an agnostic/atheist E3 is going to be comfortable under the counseling of a fundamentalist E7, 8 or 9. Better yet a Jewish or Muslim E3?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Shamrock6

So they can't?

If a Muslim dropped a toy into the Toys for Tots box, you'd reject it?

You are rediculous and you are not doing your side of this argument any favors. You very well know that this is not the issue. You have been corrected more than ten times now for misrepresenting just about every point made. But what do you care about the truth?

a reply to: BubbaJoe

I'd personally suggest that E-3 man up. If he is in doubt of himself.... He shouldn't be a Soldier.

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

You seem shallow. You can't "contract" belief or a "political" view. With your mindset, every Military Chaplain "violated" thier outh and "Commission" as officers and should be "lelieved of duty". For not "Seperating Church and State" Don't play stupid with me. I was/am a Soldier and I believe.

No, but you CAN "contract" the pretty simple idea of "I will not use my email to give the appearance of pushing religion or preaching or anything that can be remotely construed as such."

Side note: how is one both a past and present tense soldier? I always thought you were or weren't.

originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: BubbaJoe

You seem shallow. You can't "contract" belief or a "political" view. With your mindset, every Military Chaplain "violated" thier outh and "Commision" as officers and should be "lelieved of duty". For not "Seperating Church and State" Don't play stupid with me. I was/am a Soldier and I believe.

I am not shallow at all, I spent 7 years active duty. Have known a lot of really great chaplains in the military, they have violated nothing, this is what they were hired to do, and I believe serve under special rules regarding the chaplain service.

Where I was stationed, we had catholic, jewish, muslim, and protestant chaplains, I didn't deal with them often, but on the few occassions I felt the need to talk to someone, anyone, I received no different guidance from them, than what I would from a friend.

This woman is the secretary of the squadron commander, not a chaplain, so she violated the rules. I am/was an airman, and not a believer, this woman should be fired, this wasn't her first offense. If the squadron commander did nothing on the other offenses, then yes, I believe he should be relieved of his position as well.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Deathslayer, do you see the farce that your OP makes of this story? Do you see that the title of your OP misrepresents the story? Do you realise that the story here is not that atheists don't want christians giving toys to kids? But that this lady used her govt email to promote a religious fundraiser?