Bigotry or Racism

a reply to: Prezbo369
Stereotyping this small town, well to be fair that's what I thought at first when I retired out of the Military and moved here, I grew up in a very very large city. But after some years I learned that many of those that live here had also moved away from big towns, most started business. Yes there still are a few that can name all the people in the county.

a reply to: nullafides

That is a weak effort on your part. Apparently, you did not read my further posts to this thread.

This is what you said that I quoted and responded too:

In all reality, you do not dislike these people because of the color of their skin. That is a lie which has been passed down to us.

here's the meat of your clarification:

If you disallow the person opportunities because of such a fact, then it is truly a bad thing. Everyone has the right to prove themselves.

Immediately shunning them because of their race, culture, religion, etc...causing them to miss out on opportunities...now...

That, is an inherently bad thing.

Notice that the original post has 8x as many stars as your clarification. Why do you think that is? In the first post you reference the "lie which has been passed down to us." What inter-generational lie is it that you're referring to because I'd be willing to bet the people signalling their agreement by starring that post were fairly certain you were dismissing "racism" as a label used to unfairly persecute people who have reasoned objections to particular cultural norms?

So, if you feel good about yourself by being politically correct...by saying that because I do not care for the actions that are instilled culturally...and by calling me racist...

Not only are you making up things I didn't say, you're ascribing intent to these nonexistent statements. I don't care about political correctness at all. The OP made a slew of assumptions about people he knew nothing about personally based on stereotypes he's formed from anecdotes and hearsay about a group he assumes they belong to and you were quick to offer your support.

Read just this paragraph from the OP:

When my wife pulled up one of the Somalians got out of the van walked down the ditch and laid down casually, and when the other lady pulled up my wife was listen to the lady but watched the guy in the ditch, he had his eyes closed now listening to them, the lady asked about him and my wife said he is fine, at that point he opened up his eyes and looked at them and sat up.

He laid down casually? He was listening to the OP's wife and the other woman? He sat up because the OP's wife said he was fine?

There's no way the OP (or his wife) could know this yet all of it's simply assumed to be so and that's only the setup for this:

After she told me what happen I am almost 100% sure that the farmer will end up paying for the damaged done to their van and there medical bills since we bend over for them because they are Somalians, and this is where I get upset.

WHY should we care, we provided them an opportunity to better themselves but they don’t, they are using the United States and the war visa, they have caused more harm in the area than good, they are playing us at every turn like the guy above laying in the ditch.

He's upset because he assumes that the farmer who he assumes was not the cause of the accident will be compelled to pay damages and medical bills because he assumes that the legal system bends over backwards for Somalis including this man he assumes was a scammer because he assumes that the man is a Somali and he assumes that all Somalis are up to no good.

Seems legit.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Notice that the original post has 8x as many stars as your clarification.

You know, ante, I was gonna bring that up on page one...

Really says a lot about ATS that nullifides clarification that he wasn't judging people's skin has less stars than his original assertion that could have led us to that wrongful conclusion.


Laughable.

a reply to: 19KTankCommander

Look at Lewiston, and more recently, Portland in Maine. Maine Catholic Charities has been pouring people into those communities for decades and it hasn't done a whole lot to help the community.

When I was a kid in elementary school there was an influx of immigrants from Vietnam and Laos, most of them assimilated and worked hard to make a life for themselves. The most recent wave of immigration from Africa has definitely not been the same.

I looked at the paper recently to see who'd been arrested. Lots of names that didn't scream downeast Maine. Shame.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: theantediluvian

Notice that the original post has 8x as many stars as your clarification.

You know, ante, I was gonna bring that up on page one...

Really says a lot about ATS that nullifides clarification that he wasn't judging people's skin has less stars than his original assertion that could have led us to that wrongful conclusion.


Laughable.

Good things i wasnt the only one noticed it too.

ATS does have the extremists that favour those type of mindset.

His original statement has like 20+ stars, his clarification is only 3 stars, lol

I don't think it's racist or bigoted to find their behaviour unpalatable and at odds with what you're used to. You'll find problems with a lot of first generation immigrants especially from war torn nations as they attempt to assimilate into their host country because they instinctively group together and share advice on how things work; that advice isn't always to their benefit and there will be a certain degree of exploitation even amongst themselves. As they're Somali it's likely their main positive point of contact outside of their own community will be through meeting people at the local mosque.

How the local community as a whole addresses the problems and treats them will either cause them to want to integrate and fully embrace their new opportunities or make them even more insular.

a reply to: 19KTankCommander

I understand your point of view but I don't think anyone who hasn't actually experienced this kind of thing on a personal basis can quite comprehend it.
The story you told could have come from a nearby town in Western KY where the same thing has happened. A poultry company, in cahoots with a Catholic charity group dumped several hundred Somali males on the town. Same story, high rate of crime and lots of squalor because they refuse to assimilate, etc. When the townspeople realized the problem and tried talking with the poultry company and the charity leaders, they were told, "It's your problem now."
If they want to become US citizens, I have no problem with that but if they want to come to the US and refuse to assimilate---as in beating your wife in the US is a crime----killing your daughter over a kiss is a crime---not allowing your daughter to obtain an education---then yeah, they need to find a place where they'll be more comfortable with their cultural mores.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Bigotry is the intolerance of someone else's opinions. People seem to use that word a lot and not understand what it means.

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

I know you like to think an old definition should hold up forever - but definitions aren't sacred and time doesn't stand still. It means what it means

We all know what bigotry means

Ironically, calling someone a bigot is a form of bigotry.

Only by your narrow and and personal choice of definition - and not even then. So not ironic - or accurate. It's possible to identify someone as being bigoted without actually being a bigot. Same as it's possible to see that someone is a complete and utter moron without actually being a moron

What is racist, however, are those that overlook these individual's behavior because of the color of their skin.

You're saying that if we accept what the OP says as being accurate and true - we would be racist to not agree with his decision that they should all be dealt with or sent back to Somalia - because of the color of their skin? Or because they are Somalis? Or because they are bad people?

Careful Les - try and think this one through...

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015
You'll find problems with a lot of first generation immigrants especially from war torn nations as they attempt to assimilate into their host country because they instinctively group together and share advice on how things work; that advice isn't always to their benefit and there will be a certain degree of exploitation even amongst themselves. .

How the local community as a whole addresses the problems and treats them will either cause them to want to integrate and fully embrace their new opportunities or make them even more insular.

Quote for the Truth, that is very valid statement, you cant assume someone who lived in a different culture to automatically assimilate in their adult life, they can try but many will fail, but crime of course might be cultural but it not an excuse.

The future is the kids of these first generation to assimilate and they will when they go to school etc.

And like you said, making them more hostile will only breed more hostility, which they may pass on to their kids.

a reply to: 19KTankCommander

Oh there is more and more about the doings of the Somalians in my neck of the woods

We should just pack the lot of them up and send them back to Somalia, war visas are expired time to go.

Do you believe this is all Somalis - that Somalis are each and every one of them a problem?

So am I being a bigot or racist

Why do you ask?

I don't understand. Hating someone just because of their looks is illogical, acknowledging 'teething problems' with people from a certain background and hoping they will go away with their children doesn't stop the first immigrants committing actually really bad crimes, such as rape.

I don't care if it is just one of them or 50, there shouldn't be ONE woman that has to endure rape by these 'guests'.

Yes, we have our own rapists and believe me, hey are already too much. Therefore adding to the problem makes no sense.

I already feel sorry for the next victim and don't want to wait for it to happen.

Nobody, regardless of skin, religion or culture has the right to use women like that.

By inviting foreign cultures we multiply the possibility.

It is utterly irresponsible to put us into danger like that and if we speak out, no measures are taken to maybe educate these newcomers about our laws and then come down hard on the perpetrator [or we are called the old discussion sttoppers 'bigot' or 'racist']. The punishment should also be harder than normal because you were invited with good intentions by us and have betrayed the country that took you in.
Isn't that some kind of treason?

Next, are all Somalians bad? Err, no. Of course not. That would be foolish to assume. I have only met nice Somalians. But they were all university educated and working. They were just fine.
The immigrant situation is different however.

We cannot deny that even the simplest things like using a toilet seem new experiences to them. This has nothing to do with race, how can it?
It is because they obviously never had a toilet. To acknowledge that is not racist.

There are a few other things that need to be addressed too.

This should not be something we demand but something they should ask for. Imagine, you made it to the country of your dreams and you've heard so many good things about it.
Do you then:

a) Ask what the culture is like and try to learn it, so that you don't stand out and can enjoy all the western ways?
or
b) Behave like a kid in a sweetshop and take whatever you like, disregarding any local customs and basically end up being a criminal?

On a purely human level, I would hope that decent people know right from wrong. Nothing to do with anything, but culture and personal boundaries.

It is these two things people here on ATS talk. These people have a higher than normal disregard for law, how can we ignore that?. Unless they have to sit through english classes and learn our customs, they should not be integrated. For their sake as much as our own.

I have no problems with any races or cultures, if they behave in an adult and civilised way. They enrich our own and I love it. But closing your eyes to obvious problems and stopping any discussions about it, still won't help the next woman that gets raped.
I don't want that on my conscience.

a reply to: luciddream
I beg to differ. I could name dozens of first generation immigrants in our community who have assimilated quite nicely. From Pakistani doctors to Kenyan professors and the foreman of my neighbor's lawn business and my other neighbors who own a couple of successful restaurants---those who want to become citizens seek to become part of the community.
Those who have no intention of becoming US citizens and productive members of the entire community don't do so well. They're the ones usually dealing with the police and ending up in jail because they cling to the barbaric culture into which they were born. The ones who are charged with assault and end up in court giving the reason for the assault as, "Why should I not beat her when she misbehaves, she is my temporary wife." (As a judge, where would you even begin....???)
I have pretty much the same attitude toward immigrants to the US as I do immigrants to our small town and university. If you don't like it here, the culture, the mindset, you can either get busy and do the work to change it or you can take yourself off to a place more suited to your vision of the ideal community.

a reply to: 19KTankCommander

Neither!! You are rightly offended at people that demand we change for them, when coming to our country. This sort of thing is going to get worse, too, with all of the "refugees" coming in, especially since most are fighting age men.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Why would I make it up?

I know you like to think an old definition should hold up forever - but definitions aren't sacred and time doesn't stand still. It means what it means

We all know what bigotry means

Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself:

Oxford English dictionary

a ​person who has ​strong, ​unreasonable ​beliefs and who ​thinks that anyone who does not have the same ​beliefs is ​wrong:

Cambridge English Dictionary

Full Definition of BIGOT. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Merriam Webster

One out of three isn't bad, even for you, but of course English usage isn't limited to it's American common usage of it. Next you'll be telling me I should use "irregardless" because it's in the dictionary. Apparently, we don't all know what bigotry means after all—you just think you do.

Only by your narrow and and personal choice of definition - and not even then. So not ironic - or accurate. It's possible to identify someone as being bigoted without actually being a bigot. Same as it's possible to see that someone is a complete and utter moron without actually being a moron

It is your personal choice of the definition that appears to be narrow and inaccurate, which is more ironic than I first stipulated. I implore you to find more dictionaries to support your definition, at least so it is not so narrow and inaccurate as you narrowly and inaccurately found mine to be.

The comparison you make between your bigot and your moron is rather incomparable. No they are not the same. When you call someone a bigot, it shows you have at least some intolerance towards their bigotry, and some intolerance towards their differing beliefs and opinions, and yes, maybe even their group. If you disagree with this, I accept that.

You're saying that if we accept what the OP says as being accurate and true - we would be racist to not agree with his decision that they should all be dealt with or sent back to Somalia - because of the color of their skin? Or because they are Somalis? Or because they are bad people?

Careful Les - try and think this one through...

I explicitly said "those that overlook the individual's behavior because of the color of their skin". I explicitly said this and you even quoted it. Where does this "they should all be dealt with" or "sent back to Somalia" even catch wind in that sail of a brain you have there? I deserve at least some of your attention this time—What I meant was, is that it is racist to overlook someone's behavior because of what race they are, meaning, bad behavior is bad behavior, regardless of race, creed, religion, opinion etc.

Don't try too hard, Spira, because its showing. You might as well resort to calling me names as per protocol. At least its not so subtle.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

So much work Les - but, you still miss my point. We all know what bigotry means. You can work as hard as you want to trying to corral a word - doesn't change anything. It means what it means

I explicitly said "those that overlook the individual's behavior because of the color of their skin". I explicitly said this and you even quoted it. Where does this "they should all be dealt with" or "sent back to Somalia" even catch wind in that sail of a brain you have there?

Who was overlooking anyone's behavior?

Did you read the OP? You responded to it directly. There were some strong statements made - and you chose to chastise those that might (though they hadn't had a chance to yet) stand up for the Somalis

WHY should we care, we provided them an opportunity to better themselves but they don’t, they are using the United States and the war visa, they have caused more harm in the area than good, they are playing us at every turn like the guy above laying in the ditch. Oh there is more and more about the doings of the Somalians in my neck of the woods We should just pack the lot of them up and send them back to Somalia, war visas are expired time to go. So am I being a bigot or racist


Anyone that stands up for Somalis in general is not ignoring anyone's bad behavior - they are only saying that you can't generalize

Somalian isn't a race. It seems apparent that it isn't their shade of skin that bothers you. What is racist, however, are those that overlook these individual's behavior because of the color of their skin.

So, there you go. Erring on the side of bigotry. You're a kind of ambulance chaser - aren't you?

Maybe you should lead with your conscience and not your dictionary

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

So much work Les - but, you still miss my point. We all know what bigotry means. You can work as hard as you want to trying to corral a word - doesn't change anything. It means what it means

You have a poor idea of hard work. I punched the word into google. Not that hard at all. Apparently it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Who was overlooking anyone's behavior?

Did you read the OP? You responded to it directly. There were some strong statements made - and you chose to chastise those that might (though they hadn't had a chance to yet) stand up for the Somalis

WHY should we care, we provided them an opportunity to better themselves but they don’t, they are using the United States and the war visa, they have caused more harm in the area than good, they are playing us at every turn like the guy above laying in the ditch. Oh there is more and more about the doings of the Somalians in my neck of the woods We should just pack the lot of them up and send them back to Somalia, war visas are expired time to go. So am I being a bigot or racist

Anyone that stands up for Somalis in general is not ignoring anyone's bad behavior - they are only saying that you can't generalize

Why would you think that when the OP says "The somalis", he means all the somalis in the world? He made it pretty clear which Somalis he was talking about. Are you trying to say he dislikes them because they are Somalian? Because I'm fairly certain he mentioned nothing of the sort, instead providing a laundry list of behavior you refuse to even mention. And "generalizing" is the one behavior you take issue with, despite having no evidence he or anyone but yourself is doing it. You just are intolerant towards his opinion.

Anyone that stands up for anyone in general is just as guilty as hating anyone in general.

So, there you go. Erring on the side of bigotry. You're a kind of ambulance chaser - aren't you?

Maybe you should lead with your conscience and not your dictionary

Guilty of the same crimes you are crusading against. More irony for you.