High School Football Coach to Defy School District Order to not Pray after Game

a reply to: dawnstar

If I bowed to Mecca 5 times a day, wouldn't that be free expression?

Free expression is the ability to express (freely) whatever you want as long as it does not infringe on someone else.

a reply to: DBCowboy

it's not freedom of expression...

you have a religious right to bow towards mecca 5 times a day, but you don't have a right to do so anywhere that you wish do you?? do the students in a school get to pull out their prayer rugs in the middle of a lesson and lay them out beside their desks to pray? do employees get to walk off the assembly line before someone comes in to fill in for them, and do they get to do it on the production floor? heck, how about you go and try it in the middle of the main intersection in your city, see what happens!
well, there is restraints on what can be done on school grounds. the coach and his students probably would have been fine if they had gone into an unoccupied room in the school after the games. but the school (and just like an employer, they can set rules) decided the 50 yard line wasn't appropriate.

a reply to: dawnstar

Well at least your consistant with your disdain towards religion.

a reply to: DBCowboy
ya, right, if you say so,
have a question for ya, since you are claiming that this is all about people's rights...
do you have health insurance? if so, can you opt out of having coverage for birth control?
with all the fuss about businesses' (which are not people) religious rights about the issue, do we, the actual people have the ability to opt out of providing coverage to our minor daughters for birth control???
the same could be said when it comes to schools... the employees, while on public property, doing their jobs, are agents of the gov't... so by fighting for those employees right to expose their students to their religious beliefs, pressure them to pray to gods they don't believe in, aren't you fighting for the gov't to have the authority to do the same? if those employees are allowed to give the impression to the students that they are expected to pray to god's they don't believe in, haven't they, the actual people, lost their right to follow their own religious views?
meanwhile, employees across this country are finding themselves under more and more pressure due to economic conditions to not only not pray in their place of work, but to lie, cheat, treat people unkindly, commit fraud, and do all kinds of unchristian things for that paycheck that they need to have a roof over their head next month, food on their tables, clothing so their kids can go to school.... and they were the ones granted the freedom to practice their religions, not schools, not governments, not businesses!!!

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: dawnstar

Well at least your (sic) consistant (sic) with your disdain towards religion.

As a counter, I would say "who doesn't?", and then I would question why they don't, in a secular environment...

There are plenty of fora to practice religion outside of State-sanctioned environments.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
. . . does not infringe on someone else.

You need to examine that a lot closer.

originally posted by: Annee

Neither is a bible sitting unopened on a teachers desk.

But, that is illegal violating separation of church and state by suggestion.

I have found nothing online that suggest a teacher possessing a Bible in school violates the Establishment Clause. Please provide a link to the relevant ruling.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Annee

Neither is a bible sitting unopened on a teachers desk.

But, that is illegal violating separation of church and state by suggestion.

I have found nothing online that suggest a teacher possessing a Bible in school violates the Establishment Clause. Please provide a link to the relevant ruling.

They can possess a bible at school.

They can not have it displayed. It's fine if they keep it in they're drawer.

Can't research for link right now.

originally posted by: Annee
They can not have it displayed. It's fine if they keep it in they're drawer.

Can't research for link right now.

I looked up what you are claiming and found nothing. When you locate a link to the relevant ruling please post it.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Annee
They can not have it displayed. It's fine if they keep it in they're drawer.

Can't research for link right now.

I looked up what you are claiming and found nothing. We you locate a link to the relevant ruling please post it.

Teacher who refused to remove Bible from his classroom desk loses lengthy court fight

eagnews.org...

a reply to: Annee

Not good enough. He was fired for insubordination, not for having a Bible on his desk. From your own source on the ruling:

The Supreme Court justices handed down a split decision of 4-3 in favor of the lower court rulings. But they did rule that he had a right to keep his Bible on his desk, which was a partial victory for those who are troubled by the sustained national progressive effort to keep all traces of Christianity out of public schools, while urging tolerance and acceptance of other religious faiths.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Annee

Not good enough. He was fired for insubordination, not for having a Bible on his desk. From your own source on the ruling:

The Supreme Court justices handed down a split decision of 4-3 in favor of the lower court rulings. But they did rule that he had a right to keep his Bible on his desk, which was a partial victory for those who are troubled by the sustained national progressive effort to keep all traces of Christianity out of public schools, while urging tolerance and acceptance of other religious faiths.

His is not the only case.

A teacher may not keep a personal Bible or other religious material on her desk if they are not being used as part of an objective and neutral academic curriculum. The teacher may also be prohibited from reading a Bible during free reading times in the classroom while students are present. Courts have ruled that a teacher would violate the Establishment Clause by this overt expression of a particular religion. However, the teacher could keep a personal Bible in her desk drawer or in some other location out of sight of the students and could read the Bible during times when students are not present in the classroom. Teachers may not keep Bibles in a classroom library unless the Bibles are included with other religious texts (such as the Koran) as a small part of a general classroom library the students may consult for academic purposes. Similarly, a teacher should not display religious material in the classroom unless it is directly related to the curriculum and is not either devotional or proselytizing in nature. —Keeping Christ in America’s Public Schools, Gibbs & Gibbs, 2008

www.teacherswhopray.org...

originally posted by: Annee
His is not the only case. But, I have to go somewhere. Will look later.

I am doubtful that there is any ruling mandating that a teacher cannot have a Bible on their desk.

I will await the links.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Annee
His is not the only case. But, I have to go somewhere. Will look later.

I am doubtful that there is any ruling mandating that a teacher cannot have a Bible on their desk.

I will await the links.

I'm open to you proving me wrong.

Can you find anything pro? Any teacher that fought and won the right to keep a bible on top of desk? I can't. They can keep one in desk.

The Ohio case got a temporary stay, but was ruled against in the end by the Ohio SC. All I know Is what I read.

"Freshwater's 1st Amendment rights did not protect the display of these items, because they were not a part of his exercise of his religion," the court said in a 4-3 decision. articles.latimes.com...

It was not just insubordination. It's what he refused to remove from his desk.

These individual state cases do set precedence. In most school cases religion does not win. I would expect the result would probably be the same if it went all the way to the USSC.

This was a science teacher. Scary.

After testimony from more than 80 witnesses, which officials said generated more than 6,000 pages of transcript over almost two years, the school board formally ended Freshwater's contract in 2011, citing his teaching that was skeptical of evolution and his refusal to remove religious materials from his classroom.

originally posted by: Annee

I'm open to you proving me wrong.

Can you find anything pro? Any teacher that fought and won the right to keep a bible on top of desk? I can't. They can keep one in desk.

Huh? Not how it works. You claimed it violates the Establishment Clause, you need to provide the evidence.

The Ohio case got a temporary stay, but was ruled against in the end by the Ohio SC. All I know Is what I read.

The Ohio case you cited was quite clear that the Bible on his desk was not the issue, it was his insubordinate nature that got him terminated. The court ruling made it clear that a Bible (or other religious text) can be on a teacher's desk.

It was not just insubordination. It's what he refused to remove from his desk.

You are being disingenuous. The justices clearly stated it was his insubordinate action of taking additional religious texts and placing them on his desk that got him terminated. Once again, they said:

But they did rule that he had a right to keep his Bible on his desk...

It does not get much cleared than that. You cannot cite a source which disproves your point in an attempt to prove your point.

These individual state cases do set precedence. In most school cases religion does not win. I would expect the result would probably be the same if it went all the way to the USSC.

This was a science teacher. Scary.

What I find scary is the decent into fascism you promote by stating that a teacher is not able to place a book on his desk because you disagree with it. The Supreme Court has already ruled that banning books in schools is a violation of the Constitution.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

So your saying pot meet kettle

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

Huh? Not how it works. You claimed it violates the Establishment Clause, you need to provide the evidence.

Dude, I am trying to work with you.

I gave you eveything I could find.

No, I don't have to prove it beyond a shadow of doubt --- this is a discussion forum --- something to pass the time. It has no effect on my real life.

I linked you to: "Teachers Who Pray - Your Legal Rights." They agree with me.

Maybe there's no "black & white" law because it would be a waste of time and money.

The few who have tried have been "shut down".

DONE

originally posted by: Annee

Dude, I am trying to work with you.

I gave you eveything I could find.

The point is you made a claim which is inaccurate, teachers are not allowed to have a Bible in school on their desk, and are doubling down on that claim. The one case you did locate made the decision crystal clear, he was not terminated for having a Bible but for insubordination. The Establishment Clause is not being violated by a teacher placing a Bible on their desk.