GOP debate puts vaccinations back in the spotlight

a reply to: Boadicea

So Carson is calling BIG PHARMA Big Government... I bet that was a mistake.

originally posted by: antar
a reply to: Boadicea

So Carson is calling BIG PHARMA Big Government... I bet that was a mistake.

Now that you put it like that, yeah, pretty much!

And no one wants an experienced, respected long-serving doctor pointing out any of the system's flaws. Makes ya wonder about the scorn being heaped upon him for his Muslim president comments... hmmmm....

a reply to: Agartha

Let's say that I have a healthy respect for what they can do... and a healthy caution for their limitations. I've had some really fantastic doctors and PAs, and nurses and NPs are earth angels... but I've had some really awful ones too. We're told to put them on pedastals -- "They're the experts! They have the degrees! They know better than you! Trust them!!!" -- and then when they make mistakes, we're told they're only human. That's fair enough.

But I cannot help but note that it is exactly this demand to "trust doctors" is how our congress critters have rationalized their sweetheart deals and crony capitalism that is causing so many problems now. We have made ourselves dependent on an industry that is too often more focused on their best interests, rather than our best interests. And too often, in too many ways, doctors are trained accordingly, so garbage in garbage out. They may be doing their best, but that doesn't make it "the" best.

The high rates of death due to medical error and adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals also speaks to how serious a problem it can be.

In the meantime, people are becoming less and less knowledgable about first aid and treating common colds and flus, therefore less and less capable of doing so, and think they need to run to the doctor for every ailment.

I'm not trying to pick on medical personnel, but this isn't a thread to praise them or the system; it's about the problems with the system.

originally posted by: Agartha
Tell me something please, just to understand what you are talking about: let say a member of your family has an accident, what would you do? Would you call 999 and take them to the hospital? If you don't trust doctors then I guess you don't trust those working in ER and paramedics?

The way I see it, because I see it everyday is that doctors in general are not heartless people, they get punished heavily when they make even the smallest mistake and that we expect far too much from them.... like you say, they are humans, let's just respect what they do for us.

My family has an ongoing lawsuit against a hospital for medical malpractice leading to my mother's death in May 2012. Let me tell you the story behind it because I think you have oversimplified things.

In May 2012, my mom spent nine days in the hospital. During that time, she had a heart catheterization procedure. Later that day, she was stepped down to a transitional care unit. Somehow the information that she had a heart cath did not get transferred with her and no one noticed it in looking through her records for whatever reason.

So for four days she had an inflatable pressure device over the groin wound, from the femoral catheter, and no one monitored it in that time for signs of hematoma. Each day, nurses and cardiologists were required to do routine groin wound assessments, as part of the hospital protocol. Every single one was skipped.

During the last two days, in the TCU, my mom complained of being light-headed and her blood pressure was low. So they gave her medication to increase her blood pressure and more blood thinners.

On the last day in the TCU, they decided to discharge her, but she was complaining of nausea. So they gave her Zofran.

Then discharge began and they disconnected her IV and began discharge instructions. My mom stared vomiting blood and became incoherent and her blood pressure plummeted, right away. She was taken back to the intensive unit (CCU) while they ran labs to rule out a GI bleed.

Once she was in the CCU -- that's when they saw it. An enormous groin bleed which a CT scan later showed fllled her abdominal cavity as well.

My mom was in hypovolemic shock and bleeding to death internally.

She had shown signs for days and a plethora of mistakes and bad judgment missed it.

And when they pulled out the IV, at discharge, her circulatory system collapsed so badly, they could not even place a central line. She could not be given IV fluids, medication....or even a blood transfusion.

So my mom died in the worst way. It took seven hours and she was conscious through it of all knowing she was going to die, non-stop vomiting, and surrounded by doctors that couldn't help.

What comes next makes the idea of gratitude and mistake forgiveness impossible. Right away, after my mom died her primary doctor and nurse set about CHANGING her medical records. They claimed she had an IV and was given fluids -- but they were not able to explain why she never received a blood transfusion in the four hours after a doctor ordered one.

Would I allow my family to be treated in that hospital now? No way.

But this is the layered, complex reality of goodness and outright evil in the world of healthcare.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I am so sorry to hear about your mum's ordeal and about her passing away.... my sincere condolences.
What terrible practice that was, I have no words really.... when we admit new patients we have to fill in a big book with every single aspect of their care needs and check all patients from top to bottom, we don't simply rely on other nurse's handovers as they can forget things. I hope those people that were responsible for your mum's death are brought to justice.

But I don't think I have over simplified things, because I work in a hospital and I see more good than evil or maybe we are lucky in the UK and we have a better healthcare system than you guys in the US, I couldn't say as I have never worked over there. We do have medical errors too, unfortunately I don't think you will find a hospital in the world where there are no cases of malpractice, but this doesn't meant that medical professionals are all bad.

You are correct that there is a complex reality of good and bad (not evil, usually mistakes are not done on purpose) but I see mostly good. As a whole hospitals, in general, do save lots of lives, and the percentage of deaths by human error are significantly smaller than lives saved. However, I know how terrible it feels when that one error caused the death of a loved one.... and my heart goes out to you and your family.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Agartha

Let's say that I have a healthy respect for what they can do... and a healthy caution for their limitations. I've had some really fantastic doctors and PAs, and nurses and NPs are earth angels... but I've had some really awful ones too. We're told to put them on pedastals -- "They're the experts! They have the degrees! They know better than you! Trust them!!!" -- and then when they make mistakes, we're told they're only human. That's fair enough.

But I cannot help but note that it is exactly this demand to "trust doctors" is how our congress critters have rationalized their sweetheart deals and crony capitalism that is causing so many problems now. We have made ourselves dependent on an industry that is too often more focused on their best interests, rather than our best interests. And too often, in too many ways, doctors are trained accordingly, so garbage in garbage out. They may be doing their best, but that doesn't make it "the" best.

The high rates of death due to medical error and adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals also speaks to how serious a problem it can be.

In the meantime, people are becoming less and less knowledgable about first aid and treating common colds and flus, therefore less and less capable of doing so, and think they need to run to the doctor for every ailment.

I'm not trying to pick on medical personnel, but this isn't a thread to praise them or the system; it's about the problems with the system.

So, you're skeptical and distrustful of government and organised healthcare but you're happy to believe lies from non-experts (well, when it suits you anyway).
How does that work?

a reply to: Pardon?

Lol from your link on a control. Notice the control is diphtheria tetanus vaccine.

One group receives diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DPT) vaccine containing filamentous hemagglutinin (FHA), Pt-9K/129G, and 69 kDA outer membrane protein (OMP). A second group receives DPT containing FHA and OMP. The third group receives DPT containing whole-cell pertussis. The control group receives diphtheria-tetanus (DT) vaccine. All vaccines are administered as an intramuscular or deep subcutaneous injection at 6-12, 13-20, and

The one link on HIV was controlled with a placebo though Im not sure if it's actually nothing. I'm on my phone. But that study showed zero benefit to the vaccine. So...

a reply to: Pardon?

So, you're skeptical and distrustful of government and organised healthcare but you're happy to believe lies from non-experts (well, when it suits you anyway).
How does that work?

I have no idea what you're talking about... what lies from non-experts do I believe?

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I'm so sorry your mother and your family had to go through that. There are no words. Good luck with the lawsuit.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Pardon?

Lol from your link on a control. Notice the control is diphtheria tetanus vaccine.

One group receives diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DPT) vaccine containing filamentous hemagglutinin (FHA), Pt-9K/129G, and 69 kDA outer membrane protein (OMP). A second group receives DPT containing FHA and OMP. The third group receives DPT containing whole-cell pertussis. The control group receives diphtheria-tetanus (DT) vaccine. All vaccines are administered as an intramuscular or deep subcutaneous injection at 6-12, 13-20, and

The one link on HIV was controlled with a placebo though Im not sure if it's actually nothing. I'm on my phone. But that study showed zero benefit to the vaccine. So...

So...what?

The links were posted to demonstrate that there are "gold standard" studies done on vaccines which can be searched for and found in seconds.
They weren't posted because of their results.

However I'd appreciate your comments on the HPV and pneumococcal ones.
Or do you just like cherry-picking?

a reply to: Pardon?

I'll look at the others later. But for now The one study is actually not a gold standard study because it doesn't have an actual control. Which was my point in pointing that one out that pro vaccine people will say look we have gold standard studies yet they don't actually use a real control. I can take a crap on a plate and call it a filet mignon but it's still not steak

a reply to: MotherMayEye

I was taken back by your yummy avatar, I then read your post and felt like a part of me died with your Mom. No words to express my sadness for her and for you and your entire family. A tragic and un called for loss. To some it may seem like distant past but for you I am certain seems like this moment still. Anyway, not to derail, but please copy your story here and start a new thread, we will follow your story and lend you all the support this Site is famous for.

u2U me when your thread is up so I may join in.

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Pardon?

I'll look at the others later. But for now The one study is actually not a gold standard study because it doesn't have an actual control. Which was my point in pointing that one out that pro vaccine people will say look we have gold standard studies yet they don't actually use a real control. I can take a crap on a plate and call it a filet mignon but it's still not steak

It does have a control though doesn't it?
The diphtheria aspect IS the control.
They not assessing that in the study, they're assessing the pertussis aspect.

The pneumococcal study uses placebo as a control.
The HPV uses placebo as a control.
The HIV uses placebo as a control (and just to dash another anti-vax lie, it's a study that shows no benefit to that vaccine and is published...).

So you either don't understand what a control is or you're being disingenuous.
My guess is a mixture of both.

I can happily list quite a few more "gold standard" studies if you wish however I get the feeling whatever I post will never be enough to convince you will it?
It's difficult to overcome a belief system with facts.

originally posted by: Pardon?
How does that work?

Motivated reasoning is one helluva drug.