Challenging the Myths of Astronomy

a reply to: onequestion

I'm pretty sure we don't understand the Bible.

You mean this divinely inspired revelation to Mankind doesn't communicate clearly? What, God isn't omnipotent after all? Can't even express Himself clearly and unambiguously?

Doesn't sound very likely to me.

originally posted by: FearYourMind
Who or what created the universe. Many people look to science for an explanation, but those who believe in creationism seem to lack or turn a blind eye to science and simply have faith. This is a compelling lecture by Dr. Chuck Missler who combines the two (science & religion) to explain the creationism theory. Chuck is a very intelligent man who has translated the Bible from Hebrew to Greek and has embarked on many touchy topics regarding Christianity & Science.

Firstly, let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. Scriptures predate science. Science is relatively new, past couple hundred years - in short, there is a gap between scripture and science and scripture is known to not include any science. This is nicely explained by previous director of Vatican observatory, Father Dr. George Coyne in this short segment. Please note how he call's those trying to find science in scriptures...

originally posted by: FearYourMind
(Watch video to get the details)

You can spend 2 hours much better way then listen someone debunked on many levels... In its way its damaging...

Now, many already asked if you can point to what you think are good point Missler made, and you were unable to make list, making me wonder if you have even seen the video.

originally posted by: FearYourMind
I would like to hear the opinions of others and see if any of Dr. Chuck Missler's scientific claims can be debunked or if he actually knows what he is talking about. Hopefully we can have a civil discussion without insulting other people's faith and beliefs. That goes for both believers and non-believers. Let's just stick to what we can prove and disprove in regards to this video. You must watch the video to get the full picture and all of the information. Thanks to those who will take the time to hear this out.

He did not make any scientific claims, so nothing to debunk that is scientific.

Science works with data, observation and reproduction of experiments, and religion does not require any of that. There is no mix.

If you really like to get some information, learn something, let me challenge you - Follow one of free college level classes on edX, like this one: Introduction to Solar Systems Astronomy.

originally posted by: FearYourMind
a reply to: hellobruce

No, you are unable to take the time and listen. That's not my problem.

Yet you have listened and cannot even give a brief synopsis of his claims? Sorry but the average person on here does not like to waste an hour and half listening to somebody make false claims on youtube. If what he is saying is true, then surely it can be verified by physical tangible evidence and not just stated "matter of fact" in a youtube video. Anybody can make up anything in a youtube video. If you are familiar with his research as you claim, then break it down for us. 1.5 hours is a lot of time to waste for somebody that has been debunked and proven to be wrong about numerous claims in the past. Have you not watched your own video?

If you remove the evolutionary framework, get rid of the millions of years, and then take the Bible seriously, you will find an explanation that fits the facts and makes perfect sense:

So in other words if you ignore all science and evidence and take the bible as literal absolute truth you will see that astronomy is wrong and that cherry picked evidence for creationism is right? Yeah sure, if you remove all facts from the discussion, creationism is a great explanation!

a reply to: FearYourMind

The Bible tells us that God created all of the land animals on the sixth day of creation. As dinosaurs were land animals, they must have been made on this day, alongside Adam and Eve, who were also created on Day Six (Genesis 1:24–31)

Have you considered that perhaps the Jewish creation myth in Genesis might not be scientifically accurate? I mean for one thing it has God creating light and plants both BEFORE he creates the sun, not to mention the verse about him creating a light by day and a light by night. The moon, of course, is not a light by night, it has no light of its own.

What we see in the Jewish creation story in Genesis is ancient people presenting their best guess, they form a foundation for their religion and a story of creation in one story. Religion works to hold those early human civilizations together because it is woven into every part of their lives, from how they understand the natural world, to how they interact and behave in civil society to where they go when they die.

Now I don't want to turn this into a long-winded anti-Bible tirade but I'd recommend considering the fact that these stories are not written by scientifically literate people and are not literally true.

As BigFatFurryTexan pointed out science and the supernatural are divorced from one another. What he's talking about is methodological naturalism, which is the philosophy science must work under. In order to consider a cause or phenomenon part of reality it must have some demonstrable measurable effect within time and space. Even if we confirm something supernatural is going on the best we can do is catalog the effect because there is no way to test the cause/phenomenon. God is necessarily outside the purview of science, the best science can do is test for the effect (studying the effects of prayer for example).

That isn't to say there aren't theological or spiritual truths which someone might find in scripture or in faith but it means that when people try to ground their faith in hard facts they are making a mistake. In my opinion believers are better off going on faith if they wish to preserve those "truths" they hold so dear.

a reply to: SuperFrog

Thanks for the info you provided. I have watched the Missler lecture, but I'm not as scientifically inclined as many of you are. Thus the reason I posted this thread. To try and learn what is false and what is truth. I don't appreciate the ridicule for being curious about this subject, but I expected negative responses. I will watch your video. I have to watch Missler's videos two or three times before I even begin to understand what he is explaining. That is my embarrassment, but I knew ATS has intelligent minds who might be able to explain why Missler is wrong or right.

a reply to: FearYourMind

You didn't even watch the lecture. That's like demanding your professor to give you the answers without listening to the class lecture.

No sir.

That is like being asked to spend our time and money on going to see a movie without seeing any reviews, summaries, trailers, cast, genre, or language. Wait, no it isn't like that at all; it is EXACTLY that.

Hmmm, it is more like being asked to buy into Amway without knowing what products Amway sells if any.

Its like being asked to read "50 Shades of Grey" and then demonstrate why sado-masochism shouldn't be everyones go-to sexual thrill.

originally posted by: FearYourMind
Thanks for the info you provided.

Then how about you provide some info, like exactly what "Myths of Astronomy" you are talking about!

originally posted by: FearYourMind
a reply to: SuperFrog

Thanks for the info you provided. I have watched the Missler lecture, but I'm not as scientifically inclined as many of you are. Thus the reason I posted this thread. To try and learn what is false and what is truth. I don't appreciate the ridicule for being curious about this subject, but I expected negative responses. I will watch your video. I have to watch Missler's videos two or three times before I even begin to understand what he is explaining. That is my embarrassment, but I knew ATS has intelligent minds who might be able to explain why Missler is wrong or right.

It is not embarrassing if you take longer to learn something, but in this case, can't you after all response about Missler conclude that he is fraud and he really has no idea what he is talking about, thus watching it 100 times will not produce in learning something of value??

The most useful piece of learning for the uses of life is to unlearn what is untrue. ~Antisthenes

Video I posted is only minute and half long, so should not take you too long to watch. It's from Maher movie, and it is very interesting because you have father Coyne talk about religious fundamentalist and crazy idea that scriptures contain science, witch is absurd.

I would really strongly suggest you to inform your self with lecture on edX before starting to believe stuff you see on youtube. You will not learn nothing good from Missler, who is clearly misleading and has no idea what he is talking about.

This reminds me of recent study that shows that atheists know more about religion then religious people. Simple reason is that we educated ourselves about religion to be able to have civil conversation and be able to answer questions regarding religion, as well to further proof that there really is not reasonable explanation in religion and belief system. (kind of like Dr. Dawkins' response when asked 'What if you're wrong)



In short, you belong to religion only by pure luck of being born where you were born. If you were born somewhere else, you would belong to different religion. Isn't that along not enough to ask yourself - really, how can each religion claim to be true??

a reply to: FearYourMind

I don't appreciate the ridicule for being curious about this subject.

Reading through the thread, I see no ridicule of you at first, only of the material. Later on, though, as you stick to your guns and refuse to answer legitimate questions, people run out of patience and start to heckle. What else do you expect? We're only human after all.

I will watch your video. I have to watch Missler's videos two or three times before I even begin to understand what he is explaining. That is my embarrassment...

On the contrary, it's your natural intelligence and good sense asserting itself. Pseudoscientific babble like Missler's is just nonsense; no wonder you had trouble understanding it.

I bet you'll find SuperFrog's links a lot easier to understand than Missler's stuff. Try it; you may be surprised.

a reply to: FearYourMind

but I knew ATS has intelligent minds who might be able to explain why Missler is wrong or right.

So ask a question.

Start by naming just ONE astronomy myth that Missler argues with and ask the thread for comments. You could perhaps give the time reference where Missler discusses the myth so we can study his words and give answers that are relevant to his that discussion.

What on earth do you want us to say about a 2 hour movie? "Frankly I preferred Annie Hall"?

Give the thread something specific to discuss and maybe you'll get some specific responses.

a reply to: FearYourMind

In my post I made it clear to "(Watch video to get the details)".

OK, so I took the plunge.

Inside the first 40 seconds - and that includes the title sequence - Missler makes the assertion that Newton made important advances but Astronomers haven't moved beyond that. I stopped it there - life is too short for such nonsense.

Literally the first thing that comes out of his mouth is a lie so transparent that an sixth grader would laugh him out of the classroom.

If astronomers haven't paid attention to anything after Newton, how the heck did we verify everything Einstein's work predicts, like gravity lenses, the relativistic effects on Global Positioning Satellites, and so forth. This guy is just ludicrous from the get go and there is no point in listening to the whole thing.

As I said above, if you have some specific question, then by all means, ask it. But don't expect 'us' to watch/listen to this stuff and imagine what your questions might be.

After scrolling through a number of pages, I have found nothing that relates to the title of the thread. All I see from the OP is "Watch the preacher's videos"

No

Sorry, but the OP is disingenuous. If you name a thread something, then don't pull a bait and switch (although the cool kids today call it click bait). If you want to post your evangelizing on ATS, go ahead but at least label it properly.

No no no, I'm afraid you're being misled, manipulated and duped by Dr. Missler here.

Everything Missler presents here, actually comes from lucistrust.org... including the thesis 'Myths in Astronomy' and the Solution- that of moving away from a Gravity based astrophysics and cosmology, to the 'Electric Universe' one.. the nwo's synthesis of combining science with THEIR religion, esotericism.

I know you'll think I'm completely crazy (..in which case I've come to the right place then ) but please checkout the first few links below to understand the whole premise of what Dr. Missler is teaching, especially the first one. Here are a few quotes to get you started...

The Electric Gods
www.lucistrust.org...

ONE OF THE MAIN PREMISES of the Ageless Wisdom teachings as given to the world by Helena Blavatsky and Alice Bailey is that electromagnetism is the fundamental source and cause of all phenomena on every plane of manifestation–subtle and gross. This necessarily includes the physical plane and as such, this premise varies widely from that of standard gravity-based astrophysics. In fact, an ever-increasing catalogue of problems exists for the conventional science as 96% of the matter/energy needed to support the standard theory of the universe’s birth and functioning is missing. Exotic varieties of so-called dark matter and dark energy have been theorised to account for this, but to date, these hypothetical phenomena still exist solely in the minds and mathematical equations of astrophysicists. In order to maintain the principle cornerstones of their gravity-only model, i.e., the Big Bang, General Relativity, Black Holes and an Expanding Universe, astrophysicists need ever more complex theories. And meanwhile, space telescopes are sending infrared, ultraviolet and x-ray evidence that is making the standard theory more and more untenable.

This crisis in astrophysics is a welcome one from the angle of spiritual philosophy, for its complex and erroneous view of the universe and man’s position in it needs updating to reflect the elegant synthesis of reality.

Introduction, Objective and Method
www.lucistrust.org...

Since the time of Isaac Newton, conventional science has been doggedly pursuing a ‘gravity only’ model of the universe, currently regarding it as a tomb of lifeless matter that exploded into being out of nothing and which is expanding at an accelerating rate in all directions without aim or purpose. These suppositions have been supported with increasingly exotic theories such as the Big Bang, General Relativity, Black Holes, Dark Matter/Energy and the like. Meanwhile, evidence to the contrary is steadily accumulating which supports instead the esotericist’s view of the universe as a living, stable organism, electrical in nature and function.

The electrical nature of universal processes runs as a theme throughout the Tibetan Master’s work via the writings of HP Blavatsky and Alice A. Bailey which are intended to be bridging treatises between the material knowledge of man and the science of the initiates. This is likely to continue in the next phase of the Ageless Wisdom teachings too, preparing humanity for the energy of Love in its dynamic, electrical form which the Christ will employ when He reappears.

The Cosmic Bloodstream, Part 3
The Waters of Space

Having briefly explored the watery connection between the ether and the bloodstream, noting that hydrogen and oxygen are the constituent elements of both, it is not surprising that the idea of water was often used to describe the nature of the ether in esoteric texts: In the Tibetan's words:
"We have generated a term we call the ether. Occultly speaking, this is the modern way of expressing "the waters of space", which are the waters of desire, in which we are immersed."4

Terms such as "the waters of space" and "the waters of desire" are ancient, but effective ways of describing the ether as a creative medium that becomes an active, electric fluid when impregnated by cosmic will and desire. Indeed, we read in Genesis that "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", and so began the story of Creation..

Here we have the four states of matter that give form to an idea on the physical plane and correspond to the four elements of the ancients: fire, air, water and earth.

Fire/Plasma > Air/Gaseous > Water/Liquid > Earth/Physical

The Electric Bridge
www.lucistrust.org...

The true Mysteries will also reveal themselves through science and the incentive to search for them there will be given by the Christ. The Mysteries contain, within their formulas and teachings, the key to the science which will unlock the mystery of electricity—the greatest spiritual science and area of divine knowledge in the world, the fringes of which have only just been touched”.

See illuminati card game: Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know... Messiah


The Electric Universe
www.lucistrust.org...

Electric Climate
www.lucistrust.org...

As discussed in the World Goodwill newsletter “What is Life?”, esoteric philosophy regards Life as “a constant flow of electrical energy, while forms are temporary expressions through which life manifests at the dense physical level”. The whole of manifestation is therefore alive – the atom itself having a rudimentary consciousness. With this in mind we can take a fresh look at one of the big worries of our time – changes in global climate and weather patterns – viewing them from the angle of intelligent, electrical life.

Science, Alchemy and Psychological Transmutation
www.lucistrust.org...

One of the most exciting things about bridging between esotericism and psychology, spirituality and science, is that a bridge already exists – it just hasn’t been recognised as such. The bridge between esoteric and exoteric science in general is an electrical one – and the language is that of electricity. Therefore, we’ll take a look at the idea of an integrating science of electricity starting with the big picture i.e., cosmology. Within this framework, all other sciences should find their place and relationship to one another. Following on from this, we can take a look at the future renaissance of alchemy in an electrical guise, and see how electrical alchemy relates to the field of psychology and psychological transmutation.

The Antahkarana as an Electrical Phenomenon
www.lucistrust.org...

Contd..

The Cosmic Bloodstream
www.lucistrust.org...

To begin unlocking these secrets then, science will first discover the underlying electric currents that circulate throughout the whole of manifested existence. And indeed, leading plasma physicists are already revealing the lowest aspects of them through their realisation that electromagnetic currents and radiation pervade the vast, seemingly empty reaches of outer space. When this truth is acknowledged and accepted into mainstream science, the fact that the blood of all living organisms begins its cycle as a precipitation from a universal, circulating flow of electric waves, will become a more credible hypothesis. Tentative recognitions in this direction have, in fact, already been made, but their significance has yet to be fully appreciated.

Electric Masonry: Building the Carbon Temple
www.lucistrust.org...

Electric Tension and Sacred Space
www.lucistrust.org...

Galaxies
www.lucistrust.org...

The images we are now going to see are not visible within the window of visible light only. Often they are composite images, with data from X ray, UV, infrared etc ... The Ant nebula again shows interactions difficult to explain by traditional gravitation, yet fitting very well within an electrical explanation.

The Sun
www.lucistrust.org...

Planet Earth
www.lucistrust.org...

The Cell
www.lucistrust.org...

General Articles
www.lucistrust.org...


And on and on it goes: The "Myths of Astronomy" is simply a contrived crisis, to present the luciferian Electric Universe philosophy and cosmology as 'the Truth' going foward...
Sure I know in the beginning that God created "the heavens and the earth..", but the nwo still wish to deceive people onto the wrong path.. Illuminati Card Game: Secrets That Man Was Not Meant To Know.. Messiah.. Time Warp.. refering to the lesser secrets of Creation and Being that lucifer got to know while previously walking with God. Now being revealed and provided to men, as mysterious Aquarian Age science..


The Electric Universe
www.lucistrust.org...

In order to further illustrate the what Missler is doing in his lecture I did a video:

Timeindex 34:00 is a good example of how the 'entite lecture' is not only taken from, but based in luciferian philosophy. And at no point does Missler reveal this to his audience ie. gate-keeping the new esoteric cosmology behind a Christian veneer - even though he's following the luciferian dialetic (See first two links in previous post).


www.lucistrust.org...

–Crisis and Revelation in Astrophysics

Through the pioneering work of plasma cosmologists mainstream science is on the threshold of acknowledging the electrical processes that build, sustain and transmute the visible universe. And this will be a positive step forward from its current view of the universe as a tomb of dead, lifeless matter that exploded into being out of nothing and is still expanding in all directions at an accelerating rate without aim or purpose. The concrete, scientific mind is now contacting the abstract realms of thought, [Illuminati Card Game: Time Warp] but is in need of the guiding light of the intuition to reveal a simplified, more synthetic view of the universe as an organism with a set and stable form and constituted of living, conscious substance.

***One of the tasks of the esotericist is to construct a bridge of reason between exoteric and esoteric science. As an electric view of the universe and the spiralling forces that construct it are taken into mainstream scientific thinking, the esoteric perspective may become more accessible.***

Sorry to burst anyones Missler bubble.. Thanks for watching / replying.

originally posted by: rnaa
Start by naming just ONE astronomy myth that Missler argues with and ask the thread for comments. You could perhaps give the time reference where Missler discusses the myth so we can study his words and give answers that are relevant to his that discussion.

So 6 weeks after this thread started we still have no idea what any of the so called "Myths of Astronomy" actually are. The OP seems unable to list any at all!

Have you guys seen Nassim Haramein's lectures?

a reply to: lovebuckets

The guy is a fraud. Why do you bring him up?