Mentally-ill man jailed 4 months for stealing $5 of snacks dies in cell

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
Point is that if you are looking for solutions in the jails, probably not happening. You then need to look at funding for more beds or law changes when someone steals 5 in food. As far as greed, ok the government at any level is greedy and I agree with that. As far as greedy state goes, either private organizations step up when government fails or move to a state with a less greedy government, if one exist

Here's the problem with all three solutions:
Jails - They're not supposed to be treatment centers, they're ill equipped for it, not budgeted for it, and not trained for it. Mental health facilities are there to help people get better, jails are there to punish them. You don't punish a mentally ill person into productivity.

Hospitals - Budget issues. I've gone over this point several times in the past but we have a major party who refuses to pass any tax increases for any reason. Yet the budget itself is cut to the bone, if we cut everything that's not mandatory by law (roads, nasa, fda, epa, utilities, education, hospitals, police, fire fighters etc) AND cut defense in half we could only reduce the budget a further 25%. Until we can win the war that taxes do in fact need to go up, no progress can be made on this front because there simply isn't any money.

Laws - This is where we most need to focus, but it's political suicide to do so. What do you think is going to happen when a politician holds a rally in the parking lot of the grocery store this guy stole food from and says "I want to abolish jail time for stealing small amounts of food". That persons opposition is going to tear him apart for being soft on crime, and the statistics will start coming out of how much it happens while illegal. In the end it's a giant mess and not something someone can run on and fix.

a reply to: Kali74

This soul has should not have died in prison.

He may have been catatonic, but if that was the case then surely someone should've seen the signs that not all was well with this man. I've seen a friend go through catatonia and it was distressing but also very evident, and if anyone is not capable of seeing that a man or womans mind is killing then then they are either not observant enough or just don't care.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
Point is that if you are looking for solutions in the jails, probably not happening. You then need to look at funding for more beds or law changes when someone steals 5 in food. As far as greed, ok the government at any level is greedy and I agree with that. As far as greedy state goes, either private organizations step up when government fails or move to a state with a less greedy government, if one exist

Here's the problem with all three solutions:
Jails - They're not supposed to be treatment centers, they're ill equipped for it, not budgeted for it, and not trained for it. Mental health facilities are there to help people get better, jails are there to punish them. You don't punish a mentally ill person into productivity.

Hospitals - Budget issues. I've gone over this point several times in the past but we have a major party who refuses to pass any tax increases for any reason. Yet the budget itself is cut to the bone, if we cut everything that's not mandatory by law (roads, nasa, fda, epa, utilities, education, hospitals, police, fire fighters etc) AND cut defense in half we could only reduce the budget a further 25%. Until we can win the war that taxes do in fact need to go up, no progress can be made on this front because there simply isn't any money.

Laws - This is where we most need to focus, but it's political suicide to do so. What do you think is going to happen when a politician holds a rally in the parking lot of the grocery store this guy stole food from and says "I want to abolish jail time for stealing small amounts of food". That persons opposition is going to tear him apart for being soft on crime, and the statistics will start coming out of how much it happens while illegal. In the end it's a giant mess and not something someone can run on and fix.

Good points but NASA, epa, defense, etc aren't part of the state budgets and that's where this funding would happen. Apparently this is an issue even in high tax states. So is taxes or priorities the problem? You choose. Raise state taxes to a point but then might have negative affects. What group of people are you going to tax and what level are they willing to accept before fleeing for lower taxes? Don't know.

Raise taxes on who? Poor...no, middle class...bears the brunt of it already. The wealthy political donor class....good luck .

My wife in an inner city ER physician. The jails(all of them locally) have contracts with 2 level one trauma centers in Dallas.
This is on top of the clinic physicians who keep hours at the prison(s). M-TH, Noon-5 if the prison is lucky...
The prison MD does not make rounds on prisoners....the guards or the prisoner must tell the doctor or clinician the status of the patient....
Then and only then can care be escalates to a trauma center where the patient(in this case) would've been diagnosed with a mental illness and transferred to a mental health facility after having his physical needs met.
The mental health facility would then take over management of the prisoner until such time they deemed him "safe" to discharge where they would transfer custody in this guys case back to an officer.
Don't know if this helps but thought I would give it to y'all from the doctors perspective....in Dallas at least
-Christosterone

originally posted by: Reallyfolks
Good points but NASA, epa, defense, etc aren't part of the state budgets and that's where this funding would happen. Apparently this is an issue even in high tax states. So is taxes or priorities the problem? You choose. Raise state taxes to a point but then might have negative affects. What group of people are you going to tax and what level are they willing to accept before fleeing for lower taxes? Don't know.

Raise taxes on who? Poor...no, middle class...bears the brunt of it already. The wealthy political donor class....good luck .

I was throwing them out as examples, I don't know what is in the budget of each state, I barely know what's in my states, though many of the programs I mentioned have both a federal and state funding component (education for example).

Priorities are part of the problem, another problem is that no state wants to be burdened by caring for the entire country, so they have an incentive to not excel. For example, we've all read the stories where homeless people are forced on a 1 way ticket to Hawaii or LA. Lets pick a random state like Montana, lets say they start funding mental health hospitals to demand. All of the states are going to start sending their people there and making it Montana's problem because they're committed to funding it. For this reason it's something that can only be solved federally, either through federal dollars or some form of coercion to make the states comply.

As far as who pays for the tax increases. My favored solution (I wrote a thread on it a few months ago) would be to tax every person equal to the percentage of the nations private wealth that they own multiplied by the national budget. It's an easy number to derive with census data, and it's an easy math operation to perform. No tax loopholes, no need for tax lawyers, just one simple operation for each person in the US and each person would be contributing what I think would be a fair share relative to how rich or poor they are. If you own 0.00001% of the nations wealth you pay 0.00001% of the budget. If you own 10% of the wealth you pay 10% of the budget. When I brought it up in a thread though, no one seemed to agree with me. Of course, as you said priorities are always an issue too, and there's always something in the budget that would be enacted if there's just slightly more money.

a reply to: Aazadan

Fair points, but you and I both know the tax system won't changing anytime soon. The reality is that while mental health pops up as an issue from time to time it never has the ability to stay that way. Look at priorities that get the attention. Illegal immigration, gun rights, taxes, jobs, education, religion, abortion, a broad range of social justice issues, etc. Awareness pops up here and there but the sad reality is, it's not a "sexy" political or social issue that too many people choose to engage in. Except when something like this happens, and it's short lived.

You have a few problems. Exposure on a consistent basis ( but I said why not). Lack of exposure means lack of awareness and discussion. That means there is no demand to solve it. That means no solution will be presented to really try to deal with it. You get the occsisonal mention from piliticians, occasional increase in funding or not. But seriously people would rather sink time into the hot topics. A lot to overcome.

a reply to: Reallyfolks

A lack of exposure brings about certain problems to be sure, but over exposure can be just as bad. We're not going to see any solution on gun control or abortion because of how loud the people on each side are. On the other hand, something that's not being debated can quietly slip through with a little bit of compromise.

originally posted by: jheated5
Let me guess..... His family who was never there for him before he was put in jail wants to collect a big taxpayer check from the state because they didn't care for him properly before this incident? Par for the course for these types of stories...

You could well be correct as they are asking for money for the funeral already.

www.vagazette.com...

a reply to: Kali74

Terrible event and so sorry for this poor man.

I would like to say however I agree that sentences in US and UK should be higher for minor things. I personally think anyone who steals something even minor should be jailed long term. To set a standard.

However, at the same time. Obviously more should be done to check the health of any individual involved. This seems to have been overlooked.

But...but...he got all his rights! He had a right to refuse treatment, and he did. He had a right to refuse visitors, and he did. He had a right to refuse food, and he did. And now he's dead, but that man got all his rights. Thank you, ACLU!
a reply to: Kali74

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Kali74

Before we jump tp conclusions, perhaps we should wait on an official cause of death?

Second line.

Too late for that, I've walked in and out of that hell several times and it is not a place fit for an animal let alone human beings. The food is indeed poisonous to your body which is why I have never eaten a single meal while locked up. Fortunately I was never in their long enough to think twice about touching that garbage.

You can look at people who have been incarcerated for long periods of time and tell they have lived unhealthy lives behind bars. Their skin looks bad almost like a grayish color, their mental health is almost always never the same. The whole thing needs to be overhauled but we know it will be a long time if ever before that happens. First thing the establishment has to do to curve any interest and compassion towards this issue from the people would be put out a cost report. Then we the people would go "oh nope cost's too much and I'm not kicking out anymore taxes for that and back to business as usual.

I have often wondered about the mental health and capacity of the employees within that system. I mean you have to be an unempathetic and uncaring person to be able to contribute to a system that treats people or any living creature that way. I guess some people just know and accept that they are turd bags and will obediently accept any scraps that will be thrown at them and justify it by saying "hey I gotta eat too and I'm too stupid and lazy to do anything else".


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Mentally-ill man jailed 4 months for stealing $5 of snacks dies in cell
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posted on Sep, 1 2015 @ 12:26 AM
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a reply to: MamaJ

Apparently, prisons are mental health facilities if a very minor crime has been committed. This began in the early 1980's when Geraldo Rivera did a special on mental health facilities dealing with people that were hard to manage. The effect was a dis-service to people who would rather have been in a hospital setting.

Also, the film "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest" imparted a negative connotation and believe it or not people believe what they see in films. Even though few become violent they need to be cared for differently and once there is a crime committed they usually go into a prison, separate area from the general population, meds are dispensed, doctors care for them etc. Some are actually very good at this. I watched a special on it.
edit on 1-9-2015 by Harvin because: (no reason given)


TrappedPrincess




~
posted on Sep, 1 2015 @ 06:39 AM
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originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Kali74

Before we jump tp conclusions, perhaps we should wait on an official cause of death?

Second line.



Too late for that, I've walked in and out of that hell several times and it is not a place fit for an animal let alone human beings. The food is indeed poisonous to your body which is why I have never eaten a single meal while locked up. Fortunately I was never in their long enough to think twice about touching that garbage.

You can look at people who have been incarcerated for long periods of time and tell they have lived unhealthy lives behind bars. Their skin looks bad almost like a grayish color, their mental health is almost always never the same. The whole thing needs to be overhauled but we know it will be a long time if ever before that happens. First thing the establishment has to do to curve any interest and compassion towards this issue from the people would be put out a cost report. Then we the people would go "oh nope cost's too much and I'm not kicking out anymore taxes for that and back to business as usual.

I have often wondered about the mental health and capacity of the employees within that system. I mean you have to be an unempathetic and uncaring person to be able to contribute to a system that treats people or any living creature that way. I guess some people just know and accept that they are turd bags and will obediently accept any scraps that will be thrown at them and justify it by saying "hey I gotta eat too and I'm too stupid and lazy to do anything else".

SICKENING!!!!

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes

a reply to: Kali74



Before we jump tp conclusions, perhaps we should wait on an official cause of death?



Second line.

Too late for that, I've walked in and out of that hell several times and it is not a place fit for an animal let alone human beings. The food is indeed poisonous to your body which is why I have never eaten a single meal while locked up. Fortunately I was never in their long enough to think twice about touching that garbage.



You can look at people who have been incarcerated for long periods of time and tell they have lived unhealthy lives behind bars. Their skin looks bad almost like a grayish color, their mental health is almost always never the same. The whole thing needs to be overhauled but we know it will be a long time if ever before that happens. First thing the establishment has to do to curve any interest and compassion towards this issue from the people would be put out a cost report. Then we the people would go "oh nope cost's too much and I'm not kicking out anymore taxes for that and back to business as usual.



I have often wondered about the mental health and capacity of the employees within that system. I mean you have to be an unempathetic and uncaring person to be able to contribute to a system that treats people or any living creature that way. I guess some people just know and accept that they are turd bags and will obediently accept any scraps that will be thrown at them and justify it by saying "hey I gotta eat too and I'm too stupid and lazy to do anything else".



SICKENING!!!!

SICKENING!!!!

I haven't been in here for a while, but I don't see a cause of death reported here. Did we ever get more details? I can only imagine the food quality, but you'd think someone not eating at all should be noticed. If that is the case, there is negligence. However, there does need to be an official determination.

I agree that the system isn't working as it should. I don't think prisoners should be coddled, but many are locked up for long periods that 'probably don't need to be there. Violent crimes are one thing. Some infractions aren't as serious, and few ever seem to be actually rehabilitated. Many believe it's all about the money for some. and I see some truth in that. Some working in the system can indeed have issues as well, though I don't believe all do. I know someone who does admin type work in a prison, and that person isn't some uncaring sort, by a long shot! Like anywhere, there will be some good and some bad. It's from the top down that we ned to work, I suspect.