Tolerance is Intolerable and Priorities are Backwards

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

If we are headed for a revolt,guess who has the most guns and skill?

a reply to: XxNightAngelusxX

To the OP:

You know, I got to thinking about this and began to hope you didn't think that those of us "born different" of trans experience were ganging up on you or trying to browbeat you into submission. The truth is those of us that have had to deal with this at some point in our lives have all faced resistance, disbelief, rejection and those that haven't been willing to try to understand our feelings or who we were. Because of our experiences, we have a lot of empathy and a certain degree of fear for those that may be facing similar situations and why I and others have felt compelled to speak to you about this.

Most often, this resistance or disbelief starts with the people we rely on the most for support and understanding - our parents and siblings. When we aren't acknowledged and our feelings or beliefs about ourselves rejected or even allowed to be expressed, this can hurt the most of all.

From what you've written, I get it you understand this is just a phase and feel she (and I've used the female pronouns here to appease your belief of what she is in your eyes) is just an "attention-seeking shell of a human being". Did it ever occur to you that her "attention-seeking" is a cry for help?

You also say

We were distant with each other for a few years because I wasn't talking to my family... I know her. I know this isn't her.

Kids grow up and people change. How can you honestly say you know who or she or anyone is? Isn't that up to them to decide?

I've written this to her before. The only real response I got was "This is WHO I am and if you don't accept it, that's YOUR problem." There was a bit when we were livid with each other too. That didn't help.

Did you expect it to help? If she accepts herself as a him and you don't, that IS your problem. Do you need her/him to have their own problems AND yours? That's not fair and can only make your sibling's life all that much more difficult if indeed trans.

You mentioned expressing your own rebellious phase with "spikes, chains and leather" but that can hardly be compared to someone becoming the opposite gender from which they were born. Please don't assume what you did and what she/he is doing are the same thing with the same motivations.

You ask if you and your family are bigots for telling her no. I wouldn't say that, just uninformed and unsympathetic to what may turn into a life threatening situation and it would be a shame if there is not enough love in your family to see beyond their own issues, religion and politics and try to do what is best for their child.

There is no doubt this is a difficult and confusing thing for everyone. Please have a look at the link JadeStar posted to the Jack to Jackie thread and page through until you find the posts from her conservative and religious mother and father to see how difficult it was for them to come to terms with these problems, how they put their own beliefs and prejudices aside and did what was best for her to have a normal and healthy life.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything but to try and have a little compassion for someone you care about. Of course when you tell her she is confused, it will infuriate her if she is not confused in her own mind. Again, I have used "her" because that is how you claim to be the only way you will ever consider her. If you want to communicate and understand though, call her Jake and a him and see if you can get through.

In any case, this is something to be taken seriously and why those of us that have faced something like this in our lives have spoken so strongly to you about it. Please give what we've said some consideration.

Thank you.

I just have to echo what Ekron said. And I do hope you didn't think we all ganged up on you but as you probably know by now these are serious matters.

I was lucky in that I had my family's support and other than one objection which went away after meeting me and my parents, I had my schools as well. That is why I was able to focus on my studies.

Others who live in more regressive parts of the country, like this girl are not so lucky: Trans student drops class after 200 protest for and against her. fox2now.com

I can only imagine what I'd have had to go through in a place like that. The fact that this still goes on today means things are not where they should be.

I have told this story before but I met a girl who like me was born different but her parents didn't allow her to be herself and so she was a very depressed and angry child who had to go through male puberty and had to spend a ton of money countering the effects of that when she finally was able to transition after she left home.

Unfortunately her story is different than mine. Instead of going to college she dropped out and does online sex work via webcam after struggling to find a regular job that paid well enough to fund her transition.

Everyone.

Are you sure you aren't the one in denial here? "Reality" usually is determined what a person consciously accepts and believes to be true. Don't try to push yours on her. I urge you and your family to seek a medical opinion rather than believing your own reality to somehow be more valid. Dealing with transgender or potentially transgender children is something parents and siblings are not equipped or prepared to deal with and most of the time do the polar opposite from what is best for the child. Get this kid evaluated by a doctor with some expertise in this area for her sake and for that of your family.

I don't typically believe that reality is determined by "because I said so" or "because I feel that way" when there's physical evidence against it, but as I've said a million times; when she's older, and if she wants to be a "he," then whatever floats her/his boat. You mentioned tomboy influence as a child, that would be me 100%. Never wore girly clothes, never worse dresses, the most I did was wear make-up occasionally. Always wore hats, always wore guys tripp pants, so on and so forth. I wondered if that had an impact on her.

Not always....That is like a 4th grade version of biology. It's not as simple as that and there are exceptions just as there are with anything in nature typically.

Such as?

So you're stubborn and set in your ways but if you love them you will.

You have no idea how much you may be damaging someone you profess to love.

Yes, I am stubborn. And I don't much like people painting up the problem as if I'm attacking her when all I've ever done is play parent to every child in my family. It's exhausting.

And I'm not referring to you specifically, it seems to be a trend.

My family paid for my t-blockers and estrogen so that I could grow up to be a happy, productive member of society. Is that not what every parent desires?

On what planet is that what a parent desires? That would terrify me, thinking of my child meddling with their own biology. I will never say that people don't have a right to change their gender, but I, personally, think it's a bit taboo to reconfigure your own body. People feel a lot of things when they're young--and a lot of those things fade when they get older. A lot of them are phases. What happens if my little sister is going through a phase, and she makes a massive change that she will regret later in life, but it will be too late to do anything about?

I began my transition at 7 and started taking hormone blockers at 12.

Alright...

I'd say so provided you had enough information that the condition he was born with is one which has for decades been understood to be medical issue requiring medical treatment and by denying this you could be adversely affecting him mentally, socially and otherwise for years to come.

So I'm a bigot... alright...

I could delve into my family history but I don't have the typing space. So I'll sum it up. My parents spent most of our childhoods fighting with each other, keeping us away from each other, fighting with US, blaming US, and when I wasn't being blamed for my parents' fighting, I had a bipolar stepmother who legally shouldn't be allowed on the streets getting violent and hollering at the top of her lungs whenever she felt like it. The only reason I haven't hightailed it a million miles away from my family is because there are children in my family, and I refuse to leave them alone in that mess.

I don't understand every nick and cranny of this issue, fine. But I've apologized to my sister, AND I've swallowed a monumental amount of my pride to stick around and endure the drama and bs, even after they tried to have me put in jail for no reason as a means to hurt my mother.

Tell me if I don't understand the term "bigot" correctly -- but I don't think that bigots typically swallow their pride for anything. And my sister would have a lot of nerve to suggest any of this dysfunction could be my fault. Any of them would.

13 is MORE than old enough to figure out gender identity.

Seriously? How?

I'm not being a smartass. I honestly cannot wrap my head around a thirteen year old being able to make this huge decision.

Stop listening to Alex Jones is my advice


That's very sound advice.

The truth is those of us that have had to deal with this at some point in our lives have all faced resistance, disbelief, rejection and those that haven't been willing to try to understand our feelings or who we were. Because of our experiences, we have a lot of empathy and a certain degree of fear for those that may be facing similar situations and why I and others have felt compelled to speak to you about this.

Well, that's good. Because I'm getting more and more lost and I'm wondering where the hell all this family empathy was when I needed it.

Kids grow up and people change. How can you honestly say you know who or she or anyone is? Isn't that up to them to decide?

I didn't decide who she was, I just observed as we grew up. This is backwards from before.

Please don't assume what you did and what she/he is doing are the same thing with the same motivations

She's more like me than anyone else on the planet, right down to the thought patterns. It's like looking into a hipster version of myself at thirteen. It's creepy.

You ask if you and your family are bigots for telling her no. I wouldn't say that, just uninformed and unsympathetic to what may turn into a life threatening situation and it would be a shame if there is not enough love in your family to see beyond their own issues, religion and politics and try to do what is best for their child.

Some of them are trying to understand it. But mostly, it's just resulted in fighting and drama every time she opens her mouth about it. And I'm not blaming her on that front, not really. That's how our family is when they have a complex problem. They don't handle it well.

If you want to communicate and understand though, call her Jake and a him and see if you can get through.

I've tried. But see, I didn't grow up with Jake.

I don't know who the hell 'Jake' is.

Others who live in more regressive parts of the country, like this girl are not so lucky: Trans student drops class after 200 protest for and against her. fox2now.com

Sounds like a whole lot of people making a big deal out of nothing...

I don't agree with people targeting anyone like that. I get that some of them were supporting her(him?) but holy jesus, what a mess...


Frankly, it's a bit early for me to be playing parent. Forgive me if I'm short about it. This is all more convoluted than even I can wrap my mind around. Thanks for the input.

Let me put it you more simply, let me review the qualification of our statements. Please forgive ME if I'm short about it.

☼ Two of us here have changed our social and physical gender from what we were assigned at birth.
--- to put that in even more basic lower level terms, we have changed our sex from that we were born with (science refers to us as transsexual)

--- JadeStar was able to live as a girl at home from age 7. She has lived publicly as a girl since 12, had sex reassignment surgery at 17 and is now the pretty young 20 year old college student you see in her avatar.

--- I am 60 years old and have lived as a girl/woman since shortly after of high school. I underwent SRS at 22 in 1977 and have had an amazing life.

☼ NEITHER us would probably be alive today if we did not become what we knew in our hearts and soul we were.

☼ BOTH of us know what we are talking about. Please listen.

* This condition, gender dysphoria, is as serious as a HEART ATTACK
* This is NOT a behavioral or social problem - those are symptoms
* This a MEDICAL problem
* It REQUIRES professional medical/psychological evaluation and treatment

This IS a convoluted situation that IS hard to wrap one's mind around. We are trying to help you understand because we know what your sister is probably going through because we have been through similar challenges. If your sister is transgender and wants to be a boy named Jake, you got some big problems ahead dealing with it because you are probably going to have to get used to the idea or lose him as someone in your life.

Please U2U me to discuss this privately. We want to help you come to terms with what may be inevitable and answer any questions or provide information as we can for you, him and your parents to sort this all out. Heck, have Jake email one of us for his perspective on things. Maybe we can mediate? Maybe your parents can talk to JadeStar's?

We don't want to see a young person's life get screwed up. If Jake says he's transgender, he needs to go to a doctor. At least a professional evaluation would put you and your family at ease about this being a phase or rebellion. If you can't deal with the thought of this, talk to one of us, please. We are trying to be kind and helpful in a situation we know is difficult for everyone involved.

Kojiro's contribution here is not to be discounted either. She has struggled all her life coming to terms with gender issues and feels many years her life have been wasted because of it. Don't let that be Jake's story.

How often do you find strangers on the Internet trying to do something nice or genuinely offering to help? It's up to you - if you're lost, maybe we can provide some guidance and as far as our "empathy" that extends to you as well as your family and Jake because we know being transgender affects everyone in that person's life. Let's chat.

originally posted by: XxNightAngelusxX

13 is MORE than old enough to figure out gender identity.

Seriously? How?

I'm not being a smartass. I honestly cannot wrap my head around a thirteen year old being able to make this huge decision.

Just as I stated right after that sentence: "Most of us have these feelings as far back as 3 or 5, but often wind up suppressing them because, well, family." Such as was the case with me. We generally have a lot of it figured it out by our teenage years, such as 13. If it was just a "phase," it was the longest damn phase I've ever heard about. Now a quarter of my life is gone because I was too afraid of upsetting my mother and I have serious mental health issues because of all the suppression and anguish I've gone through.

Is this what you want your sibling to go through? It's a miracle that I haven't killed myself yet.

originally posted by: EKron
Kojiro's contribution here is not to be discounted either. She has struggled all her life coming to terms with gender issues and feels many years her life have been wasted because of it. Don't let that be Jake's story.

How often do you find strangers on the Internet trying to do something nice or genuinely offering to help? It's up to you - if you're lost, maybe we can provide some guidance and as far as our "empathy" that extends to you as well as your family and Jake because we know being transgender affects everyone in that person's life. Let's chat.

Exactly, don't let Jake repeat what I went through. It isn't pleasant. In fact, it's hell watching your body turn against you in every conceivable way.

OP, you claim you don't know who Jake is? Well, you should use this opportunity to take the time to learn.

a reply to: EKron

We don't want to see a young person's life get screwed up. If Jake says he's transgender, he needs to go to a doctor. At least a professional evaluation would put you and your family at ease about this being a phase or rebellion. If you can't deal with the thought of this, talk to one of us, please. We are trying to be kind and helpful in a situation we know is difficult for everyone involved.

I can agree with that. The problem isn't just her/him. I can't switch pronouns without pissing my family off. One way or the other, someone's pissed at me and it becomes difficult to even talk to any of them. It could very well be the real deal. The thing I'm struggling with the most is her/him being thirteen. I understand that it's apparently normal to discover this stuff when you're young but I've never had experience with it and its completely baffling to me. I'm new at this.

Is this what you want your sibling to go through? It's a miracle that I haven't killed myself yet.

She/he has threatened suicide before. They are trying to find her/him some help, but the reason I worry that this may NOT be the real deal is because she/he is showing a LOT of signs that are nearly identical to the way I acted at her/his age. And the reason I acted that way was because I was extremely angry and confused about the way my family would do things. There is quite a lot of fighting in my family and children weren't, and aren't, excluded from it.

I threatened suicide but I wasn't serious. It was the only way to make them listen to me. I would have never actually killed myself. The most I did was self mutilation.

I dressed and acted as differently as I could to draw a line between me and them.

I busted my ass trying to take the highroad no matter what situation arises, so that I don't succumb to the manner of savagery that the rest of my family seems to lose themselves in whenever the slightest confrontations come up. She/he is trying to take the highroad as well--because she/he thinks that the alternative communities she/he is supporting should have right over every other community out there. She/he will brag about how she/he will argue with Christians and 'put them in their place' because of how wrong they are about everything, in her/his eyes. And I understand why she/he gets so frustrated with my family, because as much as I love them, they ARE the type of people who turn their nose up at anyone who lives an alternative lifestyle. She/he is trying to take the highroad and up stand them, and be better than them, but in a slightly different way than I did.

My words were never genuine and my tears were never real. I was a walking facade. It kept me safe from becoming the same as them, at least the way I saw it. She/he acts this way. I have never seen her/him sob or explode in anger. I have seen her/him pretend to wipe nonexistent tears away while she/he's executing a well rehearsed rant about how the teachers won't let her/him use a certain bathroom. And I say well rehearsed because I know, for a FACT, what real tears look like, and I know what living inside of an unbreakable shell looks like. Because that's what I did.

She/he is being extremely fake about everything she/he is involved in. There is no genuine interest or emotion in any of it. The only time I see a glint of emotion is when she/he is ranting about how someone at school paid some kind of attention to her/him for even the most minor of reasons.

That could very well be the problem. She/he needs attention. That is DEFINITELY what she/he's acting like, like someone who's starved of attention.

Please don't take this as a patronizing ramble about how it's all fake or manifested by attention seekers. I am not trying to imply that your entire community has this problem, I am only talking about my little sister/brother. And as I said, this could very well be the real deal--or it could very well be an extremely hollow child looking for something to fill a void with, just like I did. My biggest problem is, I don't know which one it is.

originally posted by: XxNightAngelusxX
My biggest problem is, I don't know which one it is.

Thank you for your reply. I am glad to hear from you again.

I understand and sympathize with your confusion. Later this evening, I'm going to U2U you some links that may help you understand this a bit better. You are more than welcome to U2U me as well if you'd rather not discuss this publicly.

a reply to: XxNightAngelusxX

That's precisely why Jake needs to go to a therapist, to determine if this really is indeed the real deal. Therapy is extremely important to the transgender situation because the experience can be psychologically taxing. If it is a legitimate case, you will need to give Jake all the support you can, especially if the rest of the family isn't supportive.