The Heterosexual Experiment. Ingrained Bias Or Social Conditioning?

a reply to: violet

Makes you wonder, though, if there are other issues that we subconsciously react to that are not strongly polarizing topics that won't die off.

I think you're right regarding the issue of homosexuality in America. But it makes me question, really, what am I doing that is so automated and dismissive in my day to day life? Will that be something held against me later in my life? Will that be a mindset that younger generations hope will "die off"?

Perhaps I should rethink my hatred of this new mountain-man beard phase and the sub-glorious "man bun" that I'm convinced people pretend to think looks good.

a reply to: violet

I did specify the OP about the American psyche, as I am American and it's the only culture I can speak of first hand. But I gladly defer to the idea that ingrained or socially implied biases exist in many, if not all cultures.

Islamic countries appear to be engaging in a blind and intolerant hatred of the west ( though in this case I think the fact that we just can't stop dropping bombs justifies some amount of the anger ).

Some European countries engage in a passive sort of snobbery about other nations. I'm looking at you France!

North Korea makes this entire concept an art, declaring that if it ain't Kim Jung - then it dies by fire.

And so on.

I do agree that the thinking is entrenched in older people, but I don't like to believe that old dogs cannot learn new tricks. At 49 years of age I honestly am more open to seeing the other side of any give issue than I ever have been before. When I was a kid... Well I behaved as one - and was convinced I knew it all. These days I realize I don't know nearly enough and can only seek to understand and talk about that process.

A journey I tend to document in the threads I write - like this one.

a reply to: Involutionist

I purposely waited a couple of days to respond so that you and anyone else still reading this could get a clearer picture of what's really going on here.

Did you notice how a handful of people were giving you stars immediately after all of your attacks, but stopped cold turkey as soon as you expressed some semblance of an understanding?

Meet Progressive Liberalism

Though I have never in my life called someone an f-word or an n-word, and though I have never mistreated or attacked anyone simply because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin, I am constantly ridiculed and attacked here for expressing a worldview that doesn't fall directly in line with theirs.

Progressive Liberalism

Where its much easier to paint someone as a bigot, or a racist, or even a pedophile (see Deadfoot's post on the previous page) than it is to actually discuss our differences and truly overcome intolerance.

And here I was thinking the topic of the thread was the ill effects of social conditioning and ignorance. Please, what a joke.

originally posted by: DeadFoot

How does someone who claims to be so full of wisdom, well-versed on so many topics, and nearly Jurassic know what the Ocarina of Time even is, I wonder.

Very peculiar.

I don't see many 60-year-olds playing 1998 video game legends on the N64 -- not sure what his point was, though.

Perhaps you're just overly fond of the songs of the forest skull kids, a very flamboyant melody indeed, but I guess that raises more questions than it answers...

I'm 40, far from Jurassic, and still probably beat the Legend of Zelda 5 times before you took your first poop on a toilet.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: Hefficide
Hello again ATS!

Question: Do you think that bias and bigotry are so fully entrenched in the American psyche that people engage in it without thought or even being aware of it?

I don't think its social conditioning, I think its a natural defense mechanism. In fact, I'd say it takes a lot of social conditioning to get over the repulsion. I'm still trying.

It's social conditioning. In fact, the majority of the stupid s#!t that stupid people believe (and there are a lot of them) is predominantly social conditioning.

America is socially engineered. China is socially engineered and Communism was started in China with the help of the USA.

Hundreds of years ago Native American tribes knew more about survival than we would today and they had people that they called Two-Spirit people. Even Vikings (and while the History Channel is entertainment it's not far off) had a pretty relaxed view of sex. A defense mechanism it's not. Socially engineered... IT IS.

The social conditioning/engineering comes from religion, mainly Christianity. In fact, America was fairly relaxed up until the Victorian Era... and we haven't ever broken the mold.

The majority of Americans, including many who post here on ATS, have completely socially engineered minds. The sad thing is you don't even realize it.

originally posted by: Bone75
I'm 40, far from Jurassic, and still probably beat the Legend of Zelda 5 times before you took your first poop on a toilet.

You beat the Legend of Zelda in the 80s?

Where do you hide your flux capacitor?

a reply to: DeadFoot

The first Zelda came out in the late eighties on Nintendo. I still remember thinking that the cartridge having a battery in it to save games was the most high tech thing ever.

Two final thoughts. Damn, went OT in my own thread. Oh well. And, secondly. damn I am old.

a reply to: Hefficide

Lol, you had a famicom system?

Damn, you are old.

And hella nerdy.

We have too much in common.

Brb, crying.

a reply to: Bone75

The Mods removed my last post because they believed it would of caused the thread to go off topic, yet, it was directly related to the thread. The opening words of the OP posed this question:

Question: Do you think that bias and bigotry are so fully entrenched in the American psyche that people engage in it without thought or even being aware of it?

Many people often do engage in bias and bigotry without thought, or without even being aware of it, and this is why I used the personal example of being biased towards people with plastic surgery because it triggers something beyond intellectual thought within me which causes me to react instinctively to move away from them due feeling uncomfortable in any situation I find myself engaged with them. Yet, I made it a point to state I would never deny them anything in life, nor do I hate them, because I understand that the root of my bias arises from past conditioning.... and not them. Awareness allows me to understand that my perspective has absolutely NOTHING to do with them. It's all my doing and therefore I take full responsibility for my inner world which allows me to stop pointing the blame at the outer world and others. It prevents bigotry (hate via generalizing) to arise and dictate my actions, thoughts and beliefs. Now, when it comes to race issues, or the sexual orientation of others, to "deny" another or feel "hate" towards them simply because they look different or love someone of the same sex, is the sign of bigotry. This is where "Bias" becomes separated from "Bigotry", imo, and this is why I mentioned it my previous post. I was throwing you a bone...

Now, although my last post wasn't speaking about bigotry and racism, I was addressing the underlying issue that there exist an "unconscious" bias towards people that possess certain traits, ideas, philosophy, etc; due to this conditioning that does not resonate with one's reality tunnel or worldview. It does not fit into their ideals or worldview of how things should be; and all people, even the most loving, if honest and aware, will admit to partaking in such behaviour. This is why the term "liberal" or "progressive" becomes impressed into the consciousness of many due to this conditioning. It is clear example of "bias" entrenched into the psyche of many without them being aware of it. This is why intentionally asked about it when you mentioned it. I found the fact you did so very poetic since it ties into this thread from a psychological angle.

This was the point I was attempting to make in my last post that was perceived as unrelated to the thread. I feel it hit the nail on the head, yet went over the mod's heads. No disrespect to the Mods who I find are very fair minded and intelligent souls when weighing in on matters.

Anyway...I believe that this "unconscious bias" can develop into "conscious bias" if one is not aware of the fact that what does not resonate within them is often due to external past conditioning.

Conscious bias = bigotry.

Unconscious bias = ignorance.

This is why in all societies across the globe there exist a certain degree of bias fully entrenched within the psyche to the point people engage in it without thought or even being aware of it (unconscious conditioned behaviour). Again, the fact people subscribe to the ideology of "liberal vs conservative" and throw those terms out there all the time is a perfect example of the engineering of consent becoming the strings that yank on their minds. Freethinkers they are NOT when they engage in such talking points. Yet, that does mean they are always prone to such behaviour and therefore are very much freethinkers for the most part.

Now that I have stated the above, I would like to address two of your question because it does relate DIRECTLY to the underlying essence of the thread re: bias and bigotry entrenched into the psyche of many. You stated:

Do you have a problem with Zelda?

...when I made it a point to bring up your choice of avatar (which you have now changed) because it was a choice made based on racism. YOU consciously chose that avatar because of its connotations. YOU went out of your way to make that your avatar (at the time) out of hate and/or animosity towards a certain demographic of society. And again, the question put forth in the opening of the OP relates to your choice of avatar directly and therefore, I believe you are the prime candidate to help all of understand better the thought process to why someone who is a grown adult would make such a choice to wear their hate on their sleeve. Again, the question:

Do you think that bias and bigotry are so fully entrenched in the American psyche that people engage in it without thought or even being aware of it?

You offer the yang part of that question because your bigotry is not unconsciously ingrained into your psyche. You are very conscious of your decisions and make no bones about expressing your bigotry and disdain towards others that include race and sexual orientation of others. YOU offer many a glimpse into a mind that the majority of us in the world do not possess. YOU offer many the opportunity to learn why some people march to a certain drum. And again, YOU, offer the key to better understanding to the OP question:

Do you think that bias and bigotry are so fully entrenched in the American psyche that people engage in it without thought or even being aware of it?

Skull Kids from Zelda Controversy

The design of the Skull Kids in Ocarina of Time featured black skin and pronounced lips reminiscent of 'darkie iconography' or 'Golliwogs' which are regarded as racist caricatures. Other characters of iconic gaming series such as Jynx (Pokémon #124) from the Pokémon series have been accused of being similar uses of derogatory stereotypes. The design of the Skull Kid character in Majora's Mask has undergone changes effectively removing potential controversy - in the Japanese version, Skull Kid merely had his prominent lips replaced with a beak (complete with nostrils). In International and GameCube releases, he also has his pitch-black face replaced with a beige-colored head resembling wood, straw or perhaps even fabric.

*Side note (but still ties into this thread):

You also asked me in a previous post:

What are you, like 12?

I'm 28 years old and honestly had to google what Zelda was. I had no clue. I have never been into video games, yet I respect other's passions in life that do not resonate with me - I'm biased (snobby) towards people who invest their free time frivolously playing video games, especially grown adults who are much older than I am, but I do not hate you because of it, nor would I deny you anything in my power that brings you joy in life because of your personal attractions.

I was/am a dancer since the day I was born, considered a natural, Robert Hoffman III has NOTHING on me, and I spent much of my free time in my younger days cutting the rug (cardboard actually) - owning dance studios here, America, Netherlands, Germany, is my line of business. Now, you may see that as a frivolous waste of time but I hope you do not hate me for my own personal attractions and embracing my passion in order to $.

a reply to: Bone75

Did you notice how a handful of people were giving you stars immediately after all of your attacks, but stopped cold turkey as soon as you expressed some semblance of an understanding?

Yes, I did notice that. Despite the fact your tone or approach and beliefs do not resonate with me, I do see a silver lining within your thought process.

Meet Progressive Liberalism

Though I have never in my life called someone an f-word or an n-word, and though I have never mistreated or attacked anyone simply because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin, I am constantly ridiculed and attacked here for expressing a worldview that doesn't fall directly in line with theirs.

I want you to know that I read this comment AFTER I posted my last comment. I will NOT edit my last comment out of fairness. I will allow my thought process to remain uninfluenced by your words here and will respond strictly from your point of view expressed within this last post of yours.

Bone75, I will take your word that you have NOT "called" anybody the N-word, yet, your past thoughts and personal worldview that you express does not reflect better behaviour. When one holds a certain bias and allows that bias to form a belief structure (general philosophy) within their minds, they consciously enter into the realm of bigotry. Again, one not acting out their "innermost thoughts" does not trump "outer actions" because it still breeds contempt. Now, contempt stays dormant until given a reason to become expressed. Don't believe me? Take a look around America at the moment concerning race issues. Take a look around at some of the people who post bigoted and racist views right here on ATS with much confidence. There are many people in this world who have never used the N-word, or mistreated people of different ethnicity, yet, they will express their animosity, disdain, hatred, etc in many different ways, such as creating threads or posting comments that offend the senses of those who possess empathy and compassion. Some of these people are in position of power and will express their hate in a systemic way without ever having to utter racial slurs...

Again, you stated:

I am constantly ridiculed and attacked here for expressing a worldview that doesn't fall directly in line with theirs.

That is because you fail to realize that "a worldview" is only YOUR PERSONAL WORLD VIEW that offends the senses of those who possess empathy and see only one race: the Human Race. The fact that you took the time and energy out of your day to consciously create a thread titled "African American Statehood" which proposes the idea of racial segregation speaks volumes about your mindset and less about "worldviews". You see, worldviews, is all inclusive, and reflects humanity as a whole, and does not welcome the idea of entertaining the segregation of humanity based on colour, creed, or religion.

Now, one may attempt to push back the goal post and state it was simply a social thought experiment in order to breed understanding and bridge gaps, which in all honesty, is an attempt at playing silly mind games, and using it as a wildcard when their true hand becomes exposed. There are much more better ways of doing so without displaying an appalling lack of social grace such as creating a thread titled "African American Statehood".

For instance, I'm going to start a thread in the very near future about the incompetent police cultural that exist within the States and make it clear that I'm NOT doing so to foster understanding. My intent will be to call a spade a spade. Btw, our interaction throughout this thread and your comments has left me with this following thought: When one holds all the cards...some people all of the sudden want to play chess. Yeah...?

People have every right to constantly ridicule you. Also, you have every right to freedom of expression and continue to express your personal views regardless of that ridicule. It's none of your business what other people think! But, I encourage you to stand on your own two feet and not hide behind the abstracted thought you are reflecting "a world view". You are very much reflecting the unfair, yet, often deserving stereotype, the global community holds towards America as a whole: A very intolerant society full of hate, decisiveness (subcultures,) and racism.

Which brings me to this point:

Where its much easier to paint someone as a bigot, or a racist, or even a pedophile (see Deadfoot's post on the previous page) than it is to actually discuss our differences and truly overcome intolerance.

Your past post makes it very easy to paint you as a bigot. However, I do not see you as a racist because I believe you when you stated:

never mistreated or attacked anyone simply because of their sexual preference or the color of their skin

I really feel you on this part:

Where its much easier to paint someone as a bigot, or a racist, or even a pedophile (see Deadfoot's post on the previous page) than it is to actually discuss our differences and truly overcome intolerance.

I really deeply feel you on this from my own personal life path. Let's discuss our differences and truly overcome intolerance. I will go first:

Look, my biological parents were originally from Bermuda. I have green eyes and Collie Buddz' complexion (a fellow Bermudan who is cut from the same cloth as I am). I look like you, Bone.

My parents passed away when I was very young, and I was raised and LOVED by Jamaican foster parents, who look NOTHING like me. They are my parents, and frankly, using the word "foster" makes me feel very uncomfortable because I do not perceive them as as a "foster". They are just "my mom and dad". Words cannot explain it. It's either you get that thought process or you don't.

I experienced something very tragic because of racism when I was young (witnessed a man shoot another man in the middle of his face) and therefore, I'm always willing to jump in and discuss differences in order to truly overcome intolerance whenever it presents itself. Most people who are bigots and racist have not truly experienced the weight of that hate. But, if they keep going they will indeed experience it due to life's many ironies (synchronicity) that constantly present themselves.

Now, I mentioned in a previous post that one should not allow social media to manipulate their emotions, yet, I become so upset when I read people who are much older than me express so much ignorance and hate in their comments when it comes to this topic due to being spoon fed much of their ideals (conditioned mindset). And yes, it is all related to the fact I have seen what hate can breed....especially by those who have never once used the N-word and suppress their animosity that arises out of conditioned ignorance of society (enculturation).

And here I was thinking the topic of the thread was the ill effects of social conditioning and ignorance. Please, what a joke.

Oh, it is! Make no mistake about that. Give the entire ATS a read through...

Here, take a break from all this, and enjoy my "bredrin," Collie Buddz. Big Up, Dada!!!

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: DeadFoot

How does someone who claims to be so full of wisdom, well-versed on so many topics, and nearly Jurassic know what the Ocarina of Time even is, I wonder.

Very peculiar.

I don't see many 60-year-olds playing 1998 video game legends on the N64 -- not sure what his point was, though.

Perhaps you're just overly fond of the songs of the forest skull kids, a very flamboyant melody indeed, but I guess that raises more questions than it answers...

I'm 40, far from Jurassic, and still probably beat the Legend of Zelda 5 times before you took your first poop on a toilet.

Robotron. Any time. Any day. Catch you at the kill screen.

a reply to: Involutionist


Our posts were removed because they made mention of a banned member (though I'm curious as to why the mod didn't just use the snip tool and leave the relevant content).

As far as my avatar goes, I didn't bring it up... you did... twice. And I didn't ask you if you had a problem with it, I asked you what your beef was after you mentioned it... twice.

I'll have you know that I did a Google image search for "beautiful skull artwork" because I was looking for a cool skull to use as my avatar when I came across the random Zelda characters. I thought they looked cool and they were well suited to use as avatars... so I did... that is all. I wouldn't have even known they were Zelda characters if it weren't for the file names, as they look nothing like the characters in the game I played as a kid.

The thought of them somehow being misconstrued as some sort of a "bigoted" racist declaration didn't even occur to me until after you launched your attack, so I'd say you've got some pretty serious bias issues of your own there buddy.

I'll also have you know that you're not the only one here with loved-ones who look nothing like you. My family crawfish boils and cookouts look like a Ferguson protest for Christ's sake lol.

Now the title of this thread is "The Heterosexual Experiment: Ingrained Bias or Social Conditioning?" and that question in and of itself is a logical fallacy to me as ingrained bias would actually be the product of social conditioning, so its not like he's giving us opposing options to choose from there.

The options should've been "Ingrained Bias or Natural Repulsion?", to which I gave the most honest answer I could provide. And I don't understand how anyone here can acknowledge that we have natural attractions while being completely closed-minded to the thought of natural repulsions.

a reply to: Bone75

Now the title of this thread is "The Heterosexual Experiment: Ingrained Bias or Social Conditioning?" and that question in and of itself is a logical fallacy to me as ingrained bias would actually be the product of social conditioning, so its not like he's giving us opposing options to choose from there.

I agree, the OP is not giving us much of choice on the matter and this is why I made it a point to mention the word enculturation throughout this thread. This is also why I mentioned the idiocy of using socially engineered terms to label people "Progressive Liberal, etc."

The options should've been "Ingrained Bias or Natural Repulsion?", to which I gave the most honest answer I could provide. And I don't understand how anyone here can acknowledge that we have natural attractions while being completely closed-minded to the thought of natural repulsions.

I agree, and this is why I gave my most honest answer by admitting my natural repulsion (because it goes beyond intellectual reasoning or explanation) towards people with cosmetic or plastic surgery.

Here is something that ties into the psychology of this thread:

Did you know that at the beginning of the 20th century, pink was considered the accepted colour for boys, and blue the accepted colour for girls?

Now, you mentioned that "hyper feminine men" cause a reaction within you that makes you feel uncomfortable (repulsed). Are there any reasons you can personally think of as to why that is so?

If you can come up with reasons than it is indeed an ingrained bias, if not, then it is a natural repulsion.

I ask to be fair and not to accuse you of anything.

Something for all in this thread to contemplate when weighing the concept of enculturation:

When Did Girls Start Wearing Pink?

The march toward gender-specific clothes was neither linear nor rapid. Pink and blue arrived, along with other pastels, as colors for babies in the mid-19th century, yet the two colors were not promoted as gender signifiers until just before World War I—and even then, it took time for popular culture to sort things out.

For example, a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.” Other sources said blue was flattering for blonds, pink for brunettes; or blue was for blue-eyed babies, pink for brown-eyed babies, according to Paoletti.

www.smithsonianmag.com...

The question becomes: What determines feminine and masculine traits; society or nature?

a reply to: Bone75

The thought of them somehow being misconstrued as some sort of a "bigoted" racist declaration didn't even occur to me until after you launched your attack...

I don't believe in coincidences. You demonstrated many bigoted views and then went and consciously chose that avatar. Now, you claim to be a diehard Zelda fan, yet unaware of such controversy concerning the avatar you chose? C'mon man...

so I'd say you've got some pretty serious bias issues of your own there buddy.

Yes. I already stated I have a personal bone to pick when it comes to this topic and addressed where those biases arise from in my previous post by explaining my personal life path along with the tragedy of witnessing a murder due to racism. Again, you state what I myself already stated...

I'll also have you know that you're not the only one here with loved-ones who look nothing like you. My family crawfish boils and cookouts look like a Ferguson protest for Christ's sake lol.

Cool...

I live in the most multicultural diverse city on the entire planet. Most people who live in "the 6ix" do not come from diverse family, yet all have diverse friends from all cultures. Our classrooms are made up of children from all over the world. Those who embrace others because they want to and not because of family obligations are the ones I truly respect.

I starred that last comment of yours. I still do see a silver lining within you.

originally posted by: Involutionist
The question becomes: What determines feminine and masculine traits; society or nature?

This question is probably a lot more complicated than one would think it might be and is worthy of its own discussion.

a reply to: EKron

I agree, my friend. I actually began contemplating the question myself and I found as I did so that one door opens to ten more doors (such is life).