muhammed?

Islam and Christianity is far more similar then people might think... Muslims and Christians believe in many of the same prophets, the angel gabriel and the other main similarity- we pray to 1 god.

Now for you who say islam is rubbish answer me this...

You say Jesus is the son of god, Muslims say he was a prophet...
According to the bible, we are all created by god, all gods children... What makes Jesus his "son" unless god came down to earth and had intercourse with mary, but wasnt mary a virgin?

You see in the past few hundred years Christians in high power have changed the fact that Jesus was a prophet sent from god (and his miracles where performed by god) to the fact that he was Gods son. this is just an attempt to make the religion more popular

Originally posted by P Amaru
You see in the past few hundred years Christians in high power have changed the fact that Jesus was a prophet sent from god (and his miracles where performed by god) to the fact that he was Gods son. this is just an attempt to make the religion more popular

Do you have sources on that or is it just wishful thinking? Have these "high power Christians" altered the prophecies in the Old Testament about Jesus being God? I don't think so...

"For to us a child is born , to us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." [Isaiah 9:6]

Originally posted by otherwise

Originally posted by P Amaru
You see in the past few hundred years Christians in high power have changed the fact that Jesus was a prophet sent from god (and his miracles where performed by god) to the fact that he was Gods son. this is just an attempt to make the religion more popular

Do you have sources on that or is it just wishful thinking? Have these "high power Christians" altered the prophecies in the Old Testament about Jesus being God? I don't think so...

"For to us a child is born , to us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." [Isaiah 9:6]

You dont think so? so i guess you can read the many languages the bible has been changed to over the years, and i guess you have copies of every bible ever translated?

And no obviously i dont have proof about this, Its my theory, To me it is illogical that we are all the "children of god" yet jesus is actually Gods son. Are we saying God is a human being? god has blood, god can bleed? How is Jesus gods son anymore then any of us are? That is my point, Mary was a virgin, so there was no father involved, hence god wasnt jesus's father

And i dont believe it says any where in any of the Bible books that Jesus was god. If jesus was god are you telling me he spoke to himself, gave himself revalations, fathered himself? So now you are saying Christianity was born from incest? you see... it makes no sense

[edit on 3-1-2005 by P Amaru]

Originally posted by P Amaru
You dont think so? so i guess you can read the many languages the bible has been changed to over the years, and i guess you have copies of every bible ever translated?

I know there are corrupt Bible translations. For example the Jehovahs Witnesses bible. If you want a "clean" Bible, you have to get a copy of the original manuscript which is written in Greek. The King James Version (1611) is a good translation of the original manuscript.

Originally posted by P Amaru
And no obviously i dont have proof about this, Its my theory, To me it is illogical that we are all the "children of god" yet jesus is actually Gods son. Are we saying God is a human being? god has blood, god can bleed? How is Jesus gods son anymore then any of us are? That is my point, Mary was a virgin, so there was no father involved, hence god wasnt jesus's father

He isn't only the Son of God, He is also the Messiah. We are not messiahses. The Holy Spirit is the Father of the man Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by P Amaru
And i dont believe it says any where in any of the Bible books that Jesus was god. If jesus was god are you telling me he spoke to himself, gave himself revalations, fathered himself? So now you are saying Christianity was born from incest? you see... it makes no sense

[edit on 3-1-2005 by P Amaru]

He was God incarnated as a human being, this is of course a matter of faith. But, how can an omnipresent Sprit commit incest, by the way?

If he was god incarnated, then how is it he claimed to speak to god at least once (i think there were more then 1 occasion) are you now telling me he spoke to himself? Now how can he holy trinity be a father, when the holy trinity is the mother, son and the holy spirit? so his father is his mother himself and some spirit? ok... Now i could point to you some crazy ancient religions which prey to 10 gods which make more sense then this...

And how do you know thru 2000 years this latin bible hasnt been altered? Im not trying to insult jesus in anyway here, im just saying that it doesnt make sense. How can one father himself.

Originally posted by P Amaru
According to the bible, we are all created by god, all gods children... What makes Jesus his "son" unless god came down to earth and had intercourse with mary, but wasnt mary a virgin?

We are all created by God but we are not all God's children. We are children of God after we have come to Him through Christ.

Jesus Christ has always been. He lived before He was born by Mary. Jesus was placed in the womb of Mary. No sex was involved.

Originally posted by P Amaru
And i dont believe it says any where in any of the Bible books that Jesus was god. If jesus was god are you telling me he spoke to himself, gave himself revalations, fathered himself? So now you are saying Christianity was born from incest? you see... it makes no sense

[edit on 3-1-2005 by P Amaru]

Jesus was and is God. God is one God in three distinct persons. The trinity is Father,Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus said at one point that He and the Father are one. If you have seen Him you have seen the Father.

Greetings all,

otherwise wrote : "If you want a "clean" Bible, you have to get a copy of the original manuscript which is written in Greek. The King James Version (1611) is a good translation of the original manuscript. "

Hmmm..
You keep saying this.

But it is FALSE.

There are NO original manuscripts of the Bible - all we have are copies of copies of copies from LONG afterwards.

The KJV was based on Westcott and Horts work using a SMALL number of LATE manuscripts (Aleph and B) - since then much better MS have been found.

Consider the Johanine Comma -
here is a good translation based on the best MSS -
(1 John 5:6-8 NASB) "This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. [7] And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. [8] For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

And here is the KJV, which includes the FORGED comma -

(1 John 5:6-8 KJV) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

This comma was a very LATE addition - and is just one example of just how BAD the KJV is.


otherwise calls the MSS that Westcott and Hort used the "originals", yet seems unaware that they date from the 4th century.

Furthermore, these MS have serious issues which otherwise seems completely unaware of -
e.g. both these MSS do NOT have Mark 16:9-20.
The stories of the resurrection of Jesus are LATE additions to the myth.

The MSS which otherwise call "originals" do NOT have Mark 16:9-20.
How do you explain that the resurrection story is MISSING from the MSS which the KJV were based on?


Iasion

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by dbrandt
I'm confused as to what you are asking?

I didn't mean to confuse you, I thought my initial post was quite clear in its quote and then statement.

I still don't know what you are saying and it's my fault, but I do want to answer so maybe you can say what you are saying a different way?

I cannot make this any clearer. Who is 'that prophet" as referenced in John 1:12, since John is neither Jesus or Elijah?

Whoops,

Pardon my confusing Wescott & Hort's MSS work with the Textus Receptus used for the KJV.

I plead hurried post before having coffee :-)


Iasion

Originally posted by P Amaru
Islam and Christianity is far more similar then people might think... Muslims and Christians believe in many of the same prophets, the angel gabriel and the other main similarity- we pray to 1 god.

Now for you who say islam is rubbish answer me this...

You say Jesus is the son of god, Muslims say he was a prophet...
According to the bible, we are all created by god, all gods children... What makes Jesus his "son" unless god came down to earth and had intercourse with mary, but wasnt mary a virgin?

You see in the past few hundred years Christians in high power have changed the fact that Jesus was a prophet sent from god (and his miracles where performed by god) to the fact that he was Gods son. this is just an attempt to make the religion more popular

i totally agree with you Amaru, people must understand bible was rewriten and changed to suit the people, where there is only one quran. if Jesus was son of god, why did he died in such pain, where was god when he was tortured (cant spell). HZ Muhanmed died as normal.

The people in the early days could not accept that there is another prophet like jesus, because it would put both in same level, that measn Muhanmed is son of god and his mother was a virgin. i believe we are all equal.

dbrandt, let me see if I can explain (at least what I think) SomewhereinBetween is trying to say:
The priests were asking John who he was

19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

He first confessed that he was not the Christ. Then they asked him if he was Elias:

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias?

Last of all, they asked him:

21 cont'd- Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Obviously, "that prophet" is referring neither to Christ or Elias. It is referring to another, who Somewhereinbetween suggests is Muhammad, the last prophet.

About Bible quotes attributing divinity to Jesus, well, as I saw in another thread about the Bible, there are MANY contradictions about the meanings and inerrancy of the Bible. Here are some quotes I found that deny the divinity of Christ:

(John 5:30):
�By myself I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear.�

�But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father.�

Obviously, unlike God, Jesus is not "all-seeing". For those who say Jesus IS God, how can the "Father" know but not the "son"

If you say that Jesus called God "Father" and that means he is His son, here is another quote:

�And he said unto them, �When ye pray; say: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name, Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for as we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.�� (Luke 11:2-4)

Apparently he preached for everyone to call God "Father"

Some quotes affirming Jesus's humanity:

�Jesus replied, Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head.� (Matthew 8;20, and Luke 9:58)

�As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.� (John 8: 40)

�The son of man came eating and drinking, and you say: �Here is a gluttonous man��� (Luke 7: 34)

�And having said this, Jesus said again: �I confess before heaven, and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth, that I am a stranger to all that men have said of me, to wit that I am more than man. For I am a man, born of a woman, subject to the judgment of God; that live here like as other men, subject to the common miseries.� (Barnabas 94)

�Then Jesus feared greatly, and turning himself to God, said: �Take me from the world! O Lord, for the world is mad, and they will nigh call me God!� And having said this he wept.� (Barnabas 47)

For those who say salvation through Jesus only, does that mean Jesus himself, or only his message? Here are some more quotes from the bible:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Instead:

(Luke 10: 25- 28):
"'Teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?'
'What is written in the Law?' he replied. 'How do you read it?'
He answered, 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind;' and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
'You have answered correctly,' Jesus replied. 'Do this and you will live.'"

As you can see, there are many different interpretations

Originally posted by serlex
i totally agree with you Amaru, people must understand bible was rewriten and changed to suit the people, where there is only one quran. if Jesus was son of god, why did he died in such pain, where was god when he was tortured (cant spell). HZ Muhanmed died as normal.

The people in the early days could not accept that there is another prophet like jesus, because it would put both in same level, that measn Muhanmed is son of god and his mother was a virgin. i believe we are all equal.

Jesus sacrificed himself for our sins. That is why he was tortured to death. And that the quran is one, and not rewritten, doesn't mean that it is the word of God. Why would God change the story 600 years later?

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." [Matt 24:11]

"For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect." [Matt 24:24]

Muhammed is one of these false prophets. The last true prophet was Jesus Christ Himself.

"And they asked him, and said to him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou art not that Christ, nor Elijah, neither that prophet ?" [John 1:25]

Jesus Christ baptized, Elijah baptized, Moses baptized. Did Muhammed ever baptize anyone?

[edit on 4/1-2005 by otherwise]

Originally posted by otherwise
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." [Matt 24:11]

"For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect." [Matt 24:24]

Muhammed is one of these false prophets. The last true prophet was Jesus Christ Himself.

Muhammad never claimed to be a Christ, or even anything more important than a man with a message from God. He didn't show any great signs or wonders. The only miracle attributed to him (or to his God) is the revealation of the Quran.

Originally posted by otherwise
"And they asked him, and said to him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou art not that Christ, nor Elijah, neither that prophet ?" [John 1:25]

Jesus Christ baptized, Elijah baptized, Moses baptized. Did Muhammed ever baptize anyone?

I don't think there is any concept of baptism in Islam. But, as you quoted, to baptise, you don't have to be a prophet, or inversely, to be a prophet, you don't have to baptise.

Originally posted by babloyi
Muhammad never claimed to be a Christ, or even anything more important than a man with a message from God. He didn't show any great signs or wonders. The only miracle attributed to him (or to his God) is the revealation of the Quran.

But he was a false prophet.

Originally posted by babloyi
I don't think there is any concept of baptism in Islam. But, as you quoted, to baptise, you don't have to be a prophet, or inversely, to be a prophet, you don't have to baptise.

You're right, but that means that it is Moses who is mentioned in John 1:25, not Muhammed, which some claim in here.

Thank you Babloyi for expounding on �that prophet.� One thing though, I do not suggest it is Muhammed, I infer that there is a last great prophet to come who is not Jesus. But to your point, Muslims have taken this seat with Muhammed, which leads me to address the poster Otherwise.

And that the quran is one, and not rewritten, doesn't mean that it is the word of God. Why would God change the story 600 years later?

Change what? He did not change anything. Just as you suggest that the Muslims changed God�s story, so too did Christians change God's story. Seems this is fast becoming my most quoted verse in ATSNN:

GOD- I, even I, am the Lord, and beside me there is no saviour.

Now how much more succinct can he be? God and only God is the saviour.

So yes, there will be many false prophets. False prophets who totally overlook the statement as above, make their own claims then declare beware of false prophets.

Why would Muhammed want to baptize anyone?

Originally posted by otherwise
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." [Matt 24:11]

"For false Christs will arise, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect." [Matt 24:24]

Muhammed is one of these false prophets. The last true prophet was Jesus Christ Himself.

"And they asked him, and said to him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou art not that Christ, nor Elijah, neither that prophet ?" [John 1:25]

Jesus Christ baptized, Elijah baptized, Moses baptized. Did Muhammed ever baptize anyone?

[edit on 4/1-2005 by otherwise]

rofl guys, this is the problem, you guys cant accept that there are other prophets than jesus (isa), as islam says.
"many false prophets should rise", how the hell do you know that it didnt say
"there will be other prophets"

accept the facts!

The first few hundred years after the death of Jesus, there were serious conflicts within what becomes the Christian CHurch. There were very divergent views and beliefs on who/what/ jesus really is.

1) did Jesus really come back from the dead
2) reincarnation
3) the trinity
4) mary magdelene, her role, married to jesus, etc.
5) the books of the apocrypha, should they be included in bible
6) the book of revelation
7) was jesus truly God in human form or a prophet

and on and on. They argued, and fought, and used Political muscle to achieve religious "truth"
What we have today, are agreed upon interpretations of the Bible by compromising religious and political leaders Over 2000 years. Some books were discarded (Thomas, Enoch etc) because they did not fit into what religious leaders wanted, decided at the council of Nicea in 326 AD. Some books were added and the people who knew the truth about them hunted down and killed (scribes that translated sybilline prophecies into the book of revelation)

the burning of the library at Alexandria by early Popes, the destruction of Mayan astronomical records by spanish church, burning of hundreds of thousands of innocent women children and men by the inquisitions....these are all acts to obscure spiritual truths.

Dbrandt? Why would you ask a question which seeks clarification of what another has said, and then disappear when the clarification is given? do you take your place in the line of those who cannot answer my question? Running from it is not the answer you know?