muslims and christains agree that....

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yes, He is and He isn't. If Christ were all of God, there would have been no God for Jesus to speak to and for, but Christ clearly implied there was and is. So while He is God, He also is not.

He is God in similar fashion to how the burning bush was God and wasn't.

The Bible makes plain that mankind cannot see God, so God had to come in a form we could see. That was Jesus.

Jesus rocks, end of!!

What a great bloke he was, a fisherman of men, no end.

Any religion would love him to be a member of their holy texts. It just so happens, Christianity is all about him, so yeah Jesus is God in his human form.

Jesus is God, without a doubt.

I'm not religious, but I listened to the stories and Jesus is God.

Christians and Muslims agree on most historical accounts...

..except the crucifixion. Muslims typically believe that a man was crucified in the place of Jesus, and that Jesus walked.

a reply to: ketsuko

you misunderstand the purpose of Christ. at the time of embodiment he was physically separated but not spiritually. It was until the actual crucifixion that he was totally separated upon the cross that is why he cried out feeling forsaken.

Once the work of redemption was finished and he rose from the grave he is back as one as he was from the beginning. That is why he asked the father glorify him with the glory he had from the beginning.

When Philip asked for Jesus to show him the father he replied,

"have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip." John 14:9

originally posted by: r0xor
Christians and Muslims agree on most historical accounts...

..except the crucifixion. Muslims typically believe that a man was crucified in the place of Jesus, and that Jesus walked.

That comes from the Hadith. It is my opinion the Quran is refuting the idea that Jesus descended to Hell to reach those who had died before.

I believe that Jesus did not ot die on the cross because he gave up his Spirit when he said it is finished. He choose to leave the physical body to die, but Christ himself ascended to Heaven when he said it is finished, and was returned to his body for the resurrection.

The same thing can be found in the account of the Stephen when he was stoned.

Acts 7
59 As they stoned him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 He fell to his knees, shouting, “Lord, don’t charge them with this sin!” And with that, he died.

Also the Tibetan Book of the Dead teaches one how to let go of the Spirit at the time of death. It says some need to visualize their teacher over their head and imagine themselves ascending towards the teacher. - This is from memory, I don't have the quote.

a reply to: Belcastro
Hey Belcastro!

One of Jesus's titles in the Quran is indeed "Kalamallah" (i.e. "Word of God"), but this does not share the same meaning as (it is generally understood by Christians to mean) in the Bible. The title of "Creator" (Al-Khaliq) is given only to God, not Jesus. When God created the universe through "the word" in the Quran it was (and I'm paraphrasing here) "Be, and it was". This isn't the same "word" as Jesus is referred to, although some theories hold that Jesus is called "Word of God" in Islam because he was created in the same way (God said "Be!" and he was).

Hope that was helpful!

In the Quran, Jesus is referred to as the Messiah. He is not referred to as God, or the Son of God (and it is explicitly stated that God neither begets nor is begotten). The confusion may stem from Christian understanding of the term "Messiah", however- they seem to think it is analogous to a (literal) "Son of God" or "God", when it is not (neither for Jews, who came up with the concept, nor Muslims). Muslims do, in general, believe that Jesus Christ will return in the end times (but not Muhammad, as someone suggested).

The status of Jesus in the Bible is a lot more complicated. Jesus is quite explicitly a separate (and lesser) entity than God AND the Father (both Theos and Pater are used BY Jesus to refer to God as a separate entity, AND to explain how we refer to God and "the Father", and while I know some people excuse the lamentation at the cross- "Jesus was separated from God at this point!"- that isn't the only point in the Bible he does it), who doesn't have all the knowledge or desires God does. Of course, the Bible can also be interpreted to suggest that Jesus is God (although someone quoted 1 John 5:7, which is universally understood to be a forgery), so I guess confusion is going to happen.

originally posted by: babloyi
In the Quran, Jesus is referred to as the Messiah. He is not referred to as God, or the Son of God (and it is explicitly stated that God neither begets nor is begotten). The confusion may stem from Christian understanding of the term "Messiah", however- they seem to think it is analogous to a (literal) "Son of God" or "God", when it is not (neither for Jews, who came up with the concept, nor Muslims). Muslims do, in general, believe that Jesus Christ will return in the end times (but not Muhammad, as someone suggested).

Hey there, Question for you.

I learned somewhere a long time ago that the Quran says Jesus will "tear down the cross" or some such when he returns and tell the Christians to convert to Islam.

Is that in the Hadith or the Quran?

Just wondering, b/c the Hadith seems less legit

a reply to: Belcastro

S & F for your interesting question.
This link will answer your questions on the subject.

www.islamreligion.com...

originally posted by: Belcastro
Apparently, Muslims and Christians both agree that jesus is the word of god, as described in both the bible and the quran.
they both believe in jesus' miraculous birth from the virgin mary.

they also both believe that jesus is the messiah.

what they cant agree on though, is whether or not the word is creator or creation.
in the Bible, the word was god.

In the Quran, God created the universe through the Word.

so either muslims have misinterpreted their holy texts, or christians have. or both.

what do you think?

I'm not sure you've phrased that very well.
While "God" is the Creator (and by this, you're implying God the Father, I assume) in Genesis, the word used is "Elohim", which is plural. The Spirit hovers over the face of the deep. All three members of the Trinity are present here. John 1:3 says that "through Jesus Christ, all things were made, and without Him, nothing was made that has been made." Likewise Colossians 1:16 says that "in Him, all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..."

...so Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things.
This is typical of the Bible - attributing single acts to multiple members of the Trinity (if you investigate the question "who raised Jesus from the dead?" you'll find the same answer - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all credited with this act).

When it comes to the Quran...
Well, the question of who the creator is, is the least of your worries.
The creation accounts are entirely different and irreconcilable. It's not a matter of interpretation, it's the pure and simple fact that these are entirely distinct ideologies that do not worship the same god (no matter what the populist view may be). A fairly basic outline of the divergence of the two creation accounts may be found here:

creation.com...

Perhaps most important of these, however, is that the Quran teaches that Jesus Christ was a created being (Quran 3:59), wherein the Quran teaches that Jesus Christ was "made from dust".
This is in direct conflict with John's account, wherein "without Him, nothing was made that has been made". The two cannot be logically reconciled.

a reply to: Awen24

That would be the issue, if Jesus was immaculately conceived and whether he died the way some think, etc. Beyond that, if he was simultaneously the Son & the Father at the same time, etc.

Arian Christianity was a forerunner of Islam, interestingly, because they denied the trinity.

One thing I have personal evidence for is the Holy Spirit.

a reply to: r0xor
Hey r0xor!

The quote you speak of is not from the Quran, it is from a hadith in Sahih Bukhari. The text is along the lines of:

Allah's apostle said: "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary descends amongst you as a just ruler- he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish Jizya.

a reply to: Belcastro

Apparently, Muslims and Christians both agree that jesus is the word of god, as described in both the bible and the quran. they both believe in jesus' miraculous birth from the virgin mary. they also both believe that jesus is the messiah. what they cant agree on though, is whether or not the word is creator or creation. in the Bible, the word was god. In the Quran, God created the universe through the Word. so either muslims have misinterpreted their holy texts, or christians have. or both. what do you think?

No, I can't agree with the way you posted your thread. Islam will postulate that Jesus is one of many prophets and in that same thought will then promote Muhammad as being equal with Jesus and being the last great prophet. Islam will not declare Jesus as being the Begotten from God and denies that God could ever begat a son.

Muslims have not misinterpreted their book because their book clearly says Muhammad is as great and even greater than Jesus with their belief that Messiah is but a definition with several meanings. If this were not true then there would be no need for Muhammad.

Jesus was the preexisting Word till His terrestrial birth and then became the Begotten Son of God in flesh.

Christianity declares that Jesus preexisted in the celestial realm (third heaven) of God as God's Begotten Son. To clarify this Jesus said according to Apostle Luke --

Luke_10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

a reply to: Belcastro

The main question of the opening post, ”Is the “Word” Creator or Creation?”, is a great point of philosophic inquiry. It really is a great question!!!

In Islam, all of creation originates with the word and decree of Allah; He says to it ”Be” and it is. The Qur’an even identifies Jesus as the “Word” of Allah and also illustrates the decree of “Be”:

Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: His name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and will be one of those who are near to Allah.

He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah creates what He wills: When He has decreed a plan, He but says to it, 'Be,' and it is!

Qur’an 3:45-47

In the Bible, according to the first chapter of Genesis, God Elohim also creates using word and decree; God Elohim said “Let there be…”.

We must acknowledge that the Synoptic Gospels do not make reference to Jesus being the “Word of God”. This was only stated by the extremely controversial Johannine Works and the contradictory works of Saul of Tarsus (Apostle Paul). Jesus actually said that ”Ye are Gods” and that ”The Kingdom of God is within.”






Now, to the actual point and question of the opening post: ”Is the “Word” Creator or Creation?”

I am speaking from a point of view of metaphysics, mysticism, and Panentheistic Monism,…. In the grander scheme of the absolute, the Divine is not bound to duality. According to duality, “Word” is differentiated from “Speaker”. Beyond duality, “Word” and “Speaker” are One. Still considering the unintelligible and intangible perspective of the absolute,… that which is created, the medium in which it was created, and the source of creation are also One. Therefore, transcendental of duality, the Creator and the Creation are One. At the level of the Great Divine, the totality of reality and existence is a unified One. However, the greater truth is even further beyond what the subjective and limited human perceptions and mind can fathom.



Interestingly, in the Indian sub-continent, the sacred “Om” is understood to be the primordial word, sound, and vibration of creation and existential reality. While considering atoms, particles, and sub-atomic particles, we observe that there is an ever-present motion. Energy and matter exists in perpetual motion. Sound and “Word” functions by the vibrational motion of waves.

”Is the “Word” Creator or Creation?” It is Creator, creation, both, none, all, and One.

a reply to: Belcastro

revelation 19 11
biblehub.com...