consciousness is a develoment of the organism

mOjOm:

Memory both long and short term establishes who you are.

Indeed it does. The entity of 'person-hood' we become as we mature from infancy to adulthood, the 'you' that establishes itself out of life experience, is simply a recording held in long-term memory, the conscious part is short-term memory, that is the width of the spectrum of consciousness. When we physically die, both short and long-term memory dissipate into nothingness.

Regardless of the claims many will make in hope of convincing you of an afterlife, consciousness is simply an epiphenomena, an emergent by-product of energy interactions within the organism. Nothing supernatural or paranormal, and it does not lead to a continued conscious existence after biological death. We simply cease to be.

There are two insurmountable problems that need to be answered before anyone can claim or argue for an afterlife, and the first is termed the 'hard problem' of consciousness (which is the easier one to solve), and the second one is the power source for consciousness after the physical body dies. There is no power source for consciousness once the biological body and all the mechanisms within it are gone.

originally posted by: gosseyn
Yes, exactly, but at some point this symbiosis has been broken. Now the mind thinks it is different from the organism, separate from it; and there seems to be a paradox : if consciousness is a product of the organism, why this feeling of separation with the organism ? Is it just an idea, something learned, it is just a 'habit' that comes from having memories, like you said in your previous post ? Or does it just happen to present an evolutionary advantage : so it would mean that evolution has produced a mind that feels separated from the organism, and this is exactly what gives the inseparable couple mind-organism an evolutionary advantage ?

Maybe it developed as an extension of the higher brain functions in the pleasure/pain area. Without the ego separation illusion things just are and without meaning or purpose. You would still experience the feelings of excitement while playing or relaxation when just laying around. You would still get hungry and hunt food to relieve that feeling, etc. But these would be experienced without intent or a willful purpose.

However, with the ego illusion it would allow for that ego to seek out certain "feelings" and obtain them with it's own intent. Soon the ego would start learning patterns for what caused pleasure and enjoyment for the body and seek those out. So maybe the ego was created, even if just mostly an illusion of control as a means of increasing the bodies pleasure or perhaps just to increase the amount of feedback being experienced.

With "purpose" other things would develop as well. Like personal satisfaction that the ego would have by accomplishment, meeting certain goals, etc. It would also have the negative effect though too of depression for failure. All these "feelings" come from the ego after all in how it judges it's own behavior. But it may have started off as simply another "purposeful" way of bringing sensations to the body for when outside stimuli was lacking. Almost like a way to get something more out of the time you have when things are slow or boring and lack of outside stimuli being available.

It's a theory anyway??? Not sure if there is any evidence for it though as I pretty much just pulled that out of thin air.

a reply to: elysiumfire

I find the idea that death dissolves all memory and the loss of self as very comforting. I know a lot of people think the opposite but to me I don't think they've really thought it through.

Those who want to experience eternity, I don't think have really thought about what that would mean. Why would anyone want to experience eternity as themselves and always as themselves??? That would seem like hell to me.

It's not that I'm in a rush for myself to cease to exist or anything but by no means would I want to continue in my current state for very long much less eternity.

The Religious idea of actually having a physical body for eternity would actually be hell. Just imagine something horrible that you were unable to "die" your way out of. Eternity encased in concrete and buried in the ground. Or eternity with no arms or legs just laying on desert moon somewhere.

I feel that our eventual destruction of self is a blessing. It's the glorious release from the cage of "being" that comes from death.

a reply to: gosseyn

We're making progress, he's acknowledging there is a conscious....one painful step at a time....

a reply to: gosseyn

Just like you're not your thoughts, but you're the consciousness that is experimenting the thoughts.

Correct. I am not a thought. I get to choose what thoughts/beliefs I hold on to and the faith/belief becomes my life/reality. You can choose not to believe in your own power, and that the body created the Spirit. Your belief/faith becomes your reality/life.


a reply to: mOjOm

Why would anyone want to experience eternity as themselves and always as themselves??? That would seem like hell to me.

Only if you don't love yourself.

a reply to: gosseyn

Good post and some thinking in the correct direction.

If you keep putting the pieces together, you'll find the body is the exact same as consciousness, the spirit, the soul etc. and that the pluralism of the body is a fundamental error.

a reply to: gosseyn

Do you think consciousness and awareness to be the same thing?

Its hard to argue that a monkey isn't conscious. But is it aware? Does it have insight?

originally posted by: arpgme

Correct. I am not a thought. I get to choose what thoughts/beliefs I hold on to and the faith/belief becomes my life/reality. You can choose not to believe in your own power, and that the body created the Spirit. Your belief/faith becomes your reality/life.

Don't you think it's the ego who wants 'power', how can you be sure it's not the ego who is talking when you're making this sort of claim ? Does it feel bad when you imagine having no power at all ?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Good post and some thinking in the correct direction.

If you keep putting the pieces together, you'll find the body is the exact same as consciousness, the spirit, the soul etc. and that the pluralism of the body is a fundamental error.

What do you mean by 'the body is the exact same as consciousness' ?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: gosseyn

Do you think consciousness and awareness to be the same thing?

Its hard to argue that a monkey isn't conscious. But is it aware? Does it have insight?

I can only speak about my own consciousness, my own human brain and by extension the consciousness and brain of other humans.

But do you mean 'self-aware' ? There is no doubt that monkeys, or my cat, are conscious and aware. But to which degree ? I think it's more a question of degree. Anything we do, many other animals can do, but to my knowledge it's always a difference in degree.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: gosseyn

We're making progress, he's acknowledging there is a conscious....one painful step at a time....

Is that a personal attack as I believe it is ?

a reply to: gosseyn

Yeah, its hard to really base opinions on observations that include animal behavior, due to that stark lack of real context. Although we do find some novel ways to infer specifics, understanding the experience is something else entirely. That is something that I enjoy musing on in those moments where I have the time to focus. Trying to "be" an external consciousness, on its own terms. It all started with a dog when i was a little younger, and me just trying to understand why the dog did what it did (basically, be a dog).

In any event, something to think about, and Im sure ill be following along.

Side note: i love your avatar. The look on homeboys face....imagine the immense pleasure of being filled with that kind of amazement and wonder.

a reply to: gosseyn

Don't you think it's the ego who wants 'power', how can you be sure it's not the ego who is talking when you're making this sort of claim ? Does it feel bad when you imagine having no power at all ?

It depends on how you define ego. If ego means using Law of Attraction/Thought Manifestation, and being the creator of your own life, then yes I am Ego and Ego is The Divine Power.

If by ego, you mean seeing others as inferior and focusing all the creative energy/thought on harming others to feel superior, then absolutely NOT.

We are all divine Spirit/Mind creating with faith/expectation/belief/thought, whether we are Aware or unconscious of that fact.

Of course having no power feels bad, it's against the very nature of Spirit. Spirit is the Creator. Creativity to create our own life experience is true power.

originally posted by: arpgme

Only if you don't love yourself.

It's not that. I mean wouldn't you wanna experience being like a giant bird or fish or something??? Or some kind of other being that could do and experience other types of reality???

Let your imagination go and think outside just being you.

a reply to: gosseyn

What I mean is everytime we speak of consciousness, we are speaking about the body. For instance, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling etc. is the body. When we remove or alter one of the body's components, we alter consciousness. Consciousness and body are one and the same. Like you said, there is no need to distinguish between the two—speak of one, we necessarily speak of the other.

a reply to: gosseyn

Not intended directly as an attack, I suppose.

I do feel that implying that "reality" is this 'consciousness' is a physical/body thing is a bit of an insult/put down of those that believe otherwise. Yes that includes, myself.

Your theory avoids the fundamental of origin, without which, the theory, itself, would lose any chance of gaining intellectual traction.

Sticking the origin argument glibly into the spontaneous combustion 'cubby-hole' is specious, IMO.

Frankly, both premises are wrong, in my view. The creationist side less wrong, perhaps.

I, for one, place no 'faith' in science, as most refuse to apply the scientific method equally to both premises...

a reply to: mOjOm

It's not that. I mean wouldn't you wanna experience being like a giant bird or fish or something???

Well, if the physical body die, a person can just transform their light/energy body if they want to transform to a fish or any other creature.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: gosseyn

What I mean is everytime we speak of consciousness, we are speaking about the body. For instance, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling etc. is the body. When we remove or alter one of the body's components, we alter consciousness. Consciousness and body are one and the same. Like you said, there is no need to distinguish between the two—speak of one, we necessarily speak of the other.

I agree, but why stop there ? Shouldn't we be talking about the whole phenomenon ? Seeing what, hearing what, feeling what, thinking what : without a whole universe around it, there would be nothing to feel, so we're talking not only about the human organism and the consciousness within it, but also about everything around the organism. For example, without light the whole vision center of the brain wouldn't develop, or if we never had been touched by our parents or if we came from an overcrowded orphanage there would be severe brain development problems and high levels of cortisol, or the many examples of feral children who have lived with dogs and other animals or totally isolated etc..

a reply to: gosseyn

In the world of esoteric teachings, this is akin to "self" and "other". 1 and 2. Self and other are intrinsically connected, via the shared experiences you mention. Or, rather, "One cannot exist without other".

That said, this same concept is often used to try to create a "quantum" angle on spirituality. "One cannot exist without other" sounds very similar to the observer function in quantum physics.

originally posted by: gosseyn

Besides, the question you never try to answer is the "why". Why is there an illusion ? Why billions of people have this very deep feeling that they are "I". Why whole religions and philosophies have based their doctrines on this separation between "I" and the organism ? Is it genetics/evolution, is it learned ? Is it both ?

Why is grass green? Why does the sun appear in the sky?
It is only the apparent human which feels separate from life - it is an amazing miracle - no one could ever know why it happens but it does appear to.
Every religions roots are about the suffering of humans and the reason why - separation. The end of suffering is the realization of the one.
Life is happening now but this is not noticed because there is an idea that there is a you that has to do something in the future or a you that did something in the past. Humans are always planning or reminiscing or worrying - thought cannot think about now so it is missed - the human lives in time - but there is no time really so everything is actually happening now. If this is noticed then it might or might not be obvious that no one can possibly do now.
The light (of consciousness) is dancing now and no one is doing it.

LesMisanthrope:

What I mean is everytime we speak of consciousness, we are speaking about the body. For instance, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling etc. is the body. When we remove or alter one of the body's components, we alter consciousness. Consciousness and body are one and the same.

I have to disagree with this premise. Consciousness and the physical body are not the same thing. It is true that we have a physical body, and it is also true that our physical bodies are brought into a condition of consciousness from birth (perhaps even before...during gestation?) to death. We have to be critically pedantic with our language when we discuss these issues, we have to say exactly what we mean and want to convey. No vagueness, nothing cryptic, and especially nothing mythological. We have to be utterly ego-less in our discussion, and wholly transparent, having no agenda to prove one's own opinion, but to arrive at the truth of the matter, no matter what that truth may ultimately turn out to be.

For me this transparency, this ego-less pursuit of the truth is easy, because I have no agenda, I am not religious. It is not a concern to me however the truth turns out to be, I can accept the potential of both in equal degrees. We either continue a post-mortem conscious existence after physical death, or we don't, and obviously, consciousness is at the heart of the matter.

In my earlier posting I alluded to the two essential problems surrounding consciousness and the possibility of it continuing when the body dies, it is these two problems that frame my interest, and they are: !) the 'hard problem' of consciousness, and 2) the 'power source' of consciousness problem after physical death.

The hard of problem of consciousness actually leads away from post-mortem consciousness, as it is more concerned with the question on how the body and brain are able to transpose the data input of radiating energies and chemical signatures into this many varied experience of life and self-awareness?.

However, we can answer the first half of the power source problem of consciousness, because we know directly from experience and scientific study that the power source of consciousness prior to death are the many energetic mechanisms at work in the body. We can say that the physical body is the means of power for consciousness when we are alive.

It informs us right away the requirements for consciousness to arise, and one of the first requirements is a body of some kind in which energies or energy interactions can take place, there has to be energetic interfaces. Another very important requirement is the ability to capture these results of the energy mechanisms as memory. The physical biological body supplies all this, ergo, the implication is that when the biological body dies, the mental construct of the entity, the person-hood of the 'I' dies with it? All evidence points to this as being so.

Nobody has died and come back. NDE cannot represent full irreversible death simply because all experients of NDE came back into bodily consciousness. Full death is utterly irreversible, and NDE could simply be the connecting of long-term memory data into the conscious short-term memory layer just as the memory data bank loses power source connection? It still leads to irreversible death, even though it might imply there to be an afterlife, very similar in a way to a flash of light that retains a fading imprint of itself in perception long after the flash has gone.

So, consciousness is of and in the body, but it is not the body, it is an entirely disparate effect in the body.