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originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
I see where there is nearly an invisible fine line to these notions, but as far as I can tell, philosophical pessimism is more a hatred of existence, not one directed toward a specific member or group of existence.
the fact that any and all of our potential actions could and do affect another is simply more evidence that non-existence would be preferred in that removal of that possibility would be the only moral action one could take to absolve one of future affect.
Just for the record I am not attacking you, I am sure you understand that.
originally posted by: swanne
originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
I see where there is nearly an invisible fine line to these notions, but as far as I can tell, philosophical pessimism is more a hatred of existence, not one directed toward a specific member or group of existence.
Yes, quite true. But then we are the group of existence proposing this philosophical pessimism in the first place...
Ah! But who said that "affecting another" is a bad thing? How can evolution progress if no interactions (either good or evil) can ever occur between existences? If life existence is to be abolished, then what about the existence of matter, or energy? Remember that after all, life is but a complex architecture of matter and energy.
Should the whole of reality be denied existence simply because a few parts of it (of said reality) might undergo occasional negative experiences?
Do not worry, I enjoy philosophical debates.
originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
a reply to: Silcone Synapse
Always happy to post signs for thought, thanks for the reply and I hope you enjoy!
I am a Lovecraft aficionado, and love to explore his works with others - perhaps a Lovecraft thread is in order! If nothing else, feel free to toss me a PM if you'd like to discuss Lovecraft.
Again, thank you.
originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
a reply to: gosseyn
I see your point as far as goals are concerned. I agree - but, inserting meaning is really the center of the pessimistic argument. I see a goal more as a somewhat concrete idea with the goal itself being a logical endpoint. For example: Graduating college is a goal. It in and of itself is just an end to a process and any meaning that comes from this is purely invented by the person achieving the goal and to a certain extent society at large.
In terms of philosophical pessimism the meaning of it, or any meaning at all, is a lie to make ourselves feel better in a universe completely devoid of it. To lie is, in any sense, "wrong" and in the philosophical sense "unjust" or "immoral". So, to create any meaning at all in order to drag oneself along in a meaningless universe is - by the standards of philosophical pessimism - unjust.
originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: OrdoAdChao
Love and Reason are self defining and always changing within us. To truly define Love and Reason would be to put a limit on them. We can however understand the effects of Love and Reason.
Those who have Reasoned apart from Love have lead the world into many wars and much suffering.
Those like Ghandi and Mandela who matched Love with Reason accomplished much more than those who have lead us into war, without suffering.
It is history that suggests the concepts of Love and Reason when combined inspire change apart from suffering. If we are seeking to change the world we should apply the greatest proven ideology. Historically change only occurs appart from suffering when Love and Reason are working together.
This is what makes Love and Reason the highest ideologies. I am optimistic that Love and Reason can prevail once again. The math is in our favor.
originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
a reply to: gosseyn
I apologize for causing confusion with my terms. I am using terms like "moral" and "just" along with their negatives in the classic philosophical sense. I wasn't intending on bringing in cognitive science - a burgeoning and young field when compared to classical philosophy - mainly because it didn't cross my mind as cognition has very little to do with the question of meaning in the universe and if existence is moral and just in the classical idea of philosophy. As for a strict scientific approach, I agree that the results could not ever be attained for this argument, as with a lot of philosophical arguments, due to the fact that there is so much to prove scientifically before we could even pose the question of an objective meaning to existence.
It feels like you want to turn a purely philosophical debate into a hard science one with facts and figures and theories, which I suppose is fine, but not quite the topic of the thread. You're making great points from the scientific perspective, and I applaud the input as it is valid as any, however, that's a little beside the point of my OP.
I don't quite follow how my use of "wrong" should have been replaced with "incorrect" in regards to lying. I was pointing out that lying, in general, as per a human consensus, would probably be considered "wrong" and in the philosophical sense, "unjust" (Plato's Republic, et al.).
As to the subject of philosophical nihilism - which largely posits itself on an axiom of "no truth can be known" - I don't feel that any nihilistic argument would somehow deny the fact that god showed up and said "Here I am!", it would only care to point out that that isn't truth from their perspective, or really any philosophical perspective. What you suggest to be nihilism seems to me to be more of the definition of willful ignorance, which I've never read as being championed in any work considered "nihilistic" - but that could simply be my own ignorance as largely my nihilistic reading has been centered around the definition that "truth cannot be known".