The Ruins of the Soviet Space Shuttles

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ParasuvO

Rather than point out that several crewed spacecraft are being developed by the United States, and that China shows every sign of further developing its spacefaring capacity, I'll give in and ask: why do you say that? (Already hearing the steady march of Aliens approaching.)

They are going to have to steal some more from the US and Russia. The sad part is when they have to do the problem solving without their thieves.

Cannot remember which ones, but some American heavy lifters once used Russian rocket engines....

The US shuttle program was the most ambitious, expensive, complex over engineered return vessel ever.

I expect the Russians figured this out before their copy even got off the ground.

a reply to: notmyrealname

It's not missing. They know it was spent and where it was spent, but since none of the accounting software talks to any other accounting software they had to input it all by hand.

a reply to: pikestaff

They still do, although they're working on changing that.

originally posted by: intrptr
The US shuttle program was the most ambitious, expensive, complex over engineered return vessel ever.

I expect the Russians figured this out before their copy even got off the ground.

I think, the Russians wanted to show that they were capable of doing the things that the US could. They wanted a shuttle type spacecraft like the US but didn't realize the expense or the complexity of this technology. One flew with no one knowing what condition it was in after it's return. At that point, the engineers discovered the truth about the difficulty in their endeavor. The program was cancelled rather than to admit it was beyond their capabilities.

a reply to: buddah6

I think, the Russians wanted to show that they were capable of doing the things that the US could.

The space race?

Te Russians were the first to put something in orbit, a man in orbit, a woman, first to hit the moon with a lander, etc.

Personally I think they wanted to analyze the US space program, go so far as "mocking it" (the shuttle copy) and when done, abandoned it for their return system, which is still in operation today.

Not everyone wants to "be like Mike".

ETA: Defending against expansionist America is more like it.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: buddah6

I think, the Russians wanted to show that they were capable of doing the things that the US could.

The space race?

Te Russians were the first to put something in orbit, a man in orbit, a woman, first to hit the moon with a lander, etc.

Personally I think they wanted to analyze the US space program, go so far as "mocking it" (the shuttle copy) and when done, abandoned it for their return system, which is still in operation today.

Not everyone wants to "be like Mike".

ETA: Defending against expansionist America is more like it.

Space race,yes! You are correct with what you say about the Russian firsts. They may have wanted to analyze the results of the shuttle program years before the Buran and I won't dispute that. Did our Mercury, Gemini or Apollo spacecraft look like the Soyut? Did the Buran look like the shuttle? Was their design a result of form equals function? The shuttle flew for years and the Buran flew once unmanned then cancelled. What did they discover about the Buran program that warranted program cancellation?

Yes, their Soyut still flies today and if it wasn't for the US renting seats and buying engines it would have died years ago. It's the availability of the systems not the quality of the systems.

a reply to: buddah6

What did they discover about the Buran program that warranted program cancellation?

Cost.

Much harder to shoot a glider to space that can land on runways than to just return a slug that hits the ground.

Obviously.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: buddah6

What did they discover about the Buran program that warranted program cancellation?

Cost.

Much harder to shoot a glider to space that can land on runways than to just return a slug that hits the ground.

Obviously.

This. For the cost of a single Buran flight, they could fly 25 - 50 Soyuz missions.

originally posted by: buddah6

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ParasuvO

Rather than point out that several crewed spacecraft are being developed by the United States, and that China shows every sign of further developing its spacefaring capacity, I'll give in and ask: why do you say that? (Already hearing the steady march of Aliens approaching.)

They are going to have to steal some more from the US and Russia. The sad part is when they have to do the problem solving without their thieves.

This is kinda funny considering both the US and Russia "stole" from Germany to get it all started.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: imitator

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: RubberSky
America has a very active unmanned launch schedule lofting a wide variety of unmanned spacecraft. It is only in manned spacecraft that the US is temporarily relying on Russia.

That is true with the likes of Boeing, SpaceX and Sierra Nevada Corporation.... plus Nasa funding them. But seemingly odd that the Boeing’s CST-100 looks like an old Apollo capsule... fancy space shuttle rides is a thing of the past... in reality all one needs is a simple ride up to and back from space... funny how we got it right the first time around....

There have long been two schools of thought when it comes to spacefaring technology. Single purpose, single use design and multi-purpose reusable design. Apollo was the apotheosis of the first school of thought, the Space Shuttle the best example to date of the latter. A British firm is working on a single-stage-to-orbit craft, Skylon, that lifts off horizontally as a jet then switches to rockets in the upper atmosphere.

How long has the Skylon been in development and why doesn't the British Government help them move things along faster? I heard that it will be at least 30 years before one is flying at the rate they are being funded.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: buddah6

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: ParasuvO

Rather than point out that several crewed spacecraft are being developed by the United States, and that China shows every sign of further developing its spacefaring capacity, I'll give in and ask: why do you say that? (Already hearing the steady march of Aliens approaching.)

They are going to have to steal some more from the US and Russia. The sad part is when they have to do the problem solving without their thieves.

This is kinda funny considering both the US and Russia "stole" from Germany to get it all started.

Yah, thanks Hitler for the cruise missile, ballistic missile, RDX, guided weapons, among others, all of which have been perfected and are used today to wage aggressive war.

a reply to: JadeStar

Yes it is! The point is the US and Russia developed their programs with their german scientists. The germans were allowed to continue their studies and see success. China just steals it from anyone and everyone. The downfall to this strategy is China hasn't matured in space science and when the sh*t hits the fan they can't fall back to a core of information or experience. Just my 2 cents.

Russia had a way to get people to/from space. When they made their own shuttle-like craft and saw how crazy expensive it was to maintain and use, they probably said "forget this! -- we have Soyuz already!"

There's an urban legend that the US spent millions on making a pen that would write in zero-g -- the Russians just used a pencil.

True or not, it does indeed show the differences in the the mentalities of the two countries.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

I've heard the pencil thing before as well.

Soyuz would have died if the US hadn't started renting seats to the ISS. The Russian had indicated that it was their intention, if the US didn't continue support, to let the ISS to deorbit. Maybe it was a little arm twisting by the Russians but it worked. We pay for the taxi service and the Russian get to stay in space at our expense.

BTW, how many nationalities are at the ISS? Who pays for their rides? Is ESA involved?

NACA/NASA was my favorite government agency when I was a kid. I loved watching on TV all of their activities with X planes and space missions.