It amazes me when I read about US healthcare.A question for you USAers.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Yes Ill pay an extra 25 cents for a coffee, rather than dish out half a million for hospitaluzation.

Yup.

I'll also happily pay an extra $3 on my bi-weekly paycheque so as to not have to dish out $150,000 in one shot to some doctor or hospital if I break my leg.

And that extra $.50 for my Happy Meal ? No problem ! It sure beats having to pay a $1500 monthly insurance premium just in case someone in my family cuts their finger and needs stitches.

No paper work to have to fill out whilst my family member's intestines are falling out of their gut in the ER, no crossing my fingers in the hopes that my insurance company will cover the cast my kid needs on their wrist. No surprise bills arriving in the mail informing me that some 3rd party insurance company decided not to cover the cost of the 2-day hospital stay.

No having to get routine bloodwork or proof of health status regularly to keep my health coverage current and covered with some 3rd party insurance company. No having to prove non-existent previous health conditions in order to be given the privilege of some 3rd party to cover my family's health care needs if and when the need arises.

Nope. All I do is give my NHS number to the medical secretary sitting at the front desk of whatever hospital or doctor's office we decided to walk in to at that current moment in time, and the rest takes care of itself.

No need for nothing. Just simply being born in my country automatically gives me health care coverage and an NHS number to hand over to the girl sitting at the reception desk when I want to say "hi" to a doctor.

Yup.

Peace of mind knowing that we don't have to get a second mortgage on our home when the hubby runs the lawnmower over his foot is well worth that extra $.25 for that cup of coffee at Starbucks, thank you very much.

a reply to: CranialSponge

Oh you socialist liberal commie you!

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Oh you socialist liberal commie you!

I know, eh ?!

Pinko commie socialist libtard... and proud of it.

a reply to: CranialSponge

What can I say? We are a country of morons. And I mean that.

Let's look at it simply:

The ideal solution is everyone has healthcare at an affordable rate.

The problem with the government heading it is hospitals will turn into a place like the DMV or the post office (I was just at a post office, much slower and sadder than FedEx).

Now it might not have the same effect as the UK (apples and oranges there), but one of the biggest issues is that medical expenses is terribly bloated and expensive in the US. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical have completely taken over.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Ouch... morons ?

No, I disagree.

It's just a simple matter of Americans not being able to understand what it's like to have something like healthcare coverage that doesn't involve a 3rd party controlling it and holding it over their heads, or having healthcare coverage that doesn't involve the words "affordable rates" and "premiums" and "co-pays".

It's hard to understand something a person has never experienced firsthand, hence a fear of the unknown per se.

You guys have these insurance companies and/or employers that control your healthcare and it's all you've ever known, so most of you automatically assume that government would also "control" your healthcare if they were to step into an NHS-style system.

And nothing could be further from the truth...

I dictate whom I chose as a healthcare provider, I dictate what my healthcare needs should be, I dictate how many 2nd opinions I want, I dictate whether or not I want to take a prescription drug, I dictate whether or not I want an x-ray done, I dictate whether or not I want bloodwork done, I dictate whether or not I want to keep smoking and eating bacon against my doctor's wishes, etc etc. I dictate all of those things... not my government and not some profit making 3rd party insurance company... just me.

And no matter what choices I make, my healthcare coverage and/or how it gets provided does not get taken away from me by anything or anyone.

So for the most part, I think Americans just simply can't wrap their minds around the idea that an NHS system actually means the exact opposite of what they think it means... actual honest-to-gawd full freedom to make their own healthcare choices without having to sell off their first born to have it OR having to get someone else's permission to do so.

IMHO, that's not being moronic... that's just being naive of something they've never known.

People do not understand. Socialized health care would be cheaper. Look at the insurance costs to employers, if you were to get that money added to your paycheck, it would easily offset most people's contribution in taxes. Look at all the insurances piggybacking coverage. Our healthcare/insurance system is not efficient for healing people and it is more expensive. I can see what is happening. I saw the unneeded tests I had and other people have had. Tests that are looking in the wrong direction instead of the right test right away. All the people working in healthcare are dependent on people walking in that door and this means it takes longer to get healed. Supporting the healthcare workers is on the mind of doctors and hospitals. Expanding services which bring extra costs is also on the minds of these people. All this needs to be paid for. In Canada and the UK, if they get you fixed quicker, the doctors get paid more. Now, our system is too open to corruption. We need to change it. Obamacare is somewhat of a joke, all it does is make more people pay into the system and they use it more when they do not need to. More suckers to add to the list.

Doctors and hospitals are needed, but we could make this into a better system than the one we have had here.

a reply to: CranialSponge
You make a very good point.. Most arguments against government provision of health care (or pretty much anything) come down to theoretical arguments about freedom (the word slave will normally be used).
In the real world the provision of healthcare, social security, education gives us more freedom.
To give a real example I have recently been offered a new job. Better money but less job security. As I have a family under the U S system I couldn't even consider it. Here I know that my family's health care and future education is covered.
With the exception of the right to kill each other with hand guns I can't think of any freedoms that Americans enjoy that european countries don't have also. And we have better health care as well.

a reply to: CranialSponge


The NHS was rated as the best system in terms of efficiency, effective care, safe care, co-ordinated care, patient-centred care and cost-related problems. It was also ranked second for equity.
We beat 10 other countrys for this including the USA.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Also better dental health.
(I know that dispells the myth eh lol?.)

I opted to pay the fine rather than bow to the insurance industry. However, I have relatives who are in the system and on three recent doctor visits we were left sitting in the lobby for hours because the newly mandated computer reporting system wasn't working. An entire medical building full of people waiting to see doctors couldn't because the computers were down for nearly three hours.
That is not health care.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Sorry, I can't get behind your apparent philosophy of 'fix 'em for free so we can have forced labor.' That sounds like you're a charitable organization that fixes broken tractors so you can use them on a farm...pretty reprehensible viewpoint, honestly.

Classic ATS silliness bleating that I've said something so terrible.
Stop with the drama queen stuff, it is easier to help someone and help them to become a productive part of society if they have no medical ailments.
I support my taxes funding the treatment of their ailments.
All the rest of it is your invention alone, but I will say that lazy bastards have nothing to whine about if their physical ailments are fixed by the taxpayer.

Ummm...let's quote you directly, here, mate:

originally posted by: grainofsand
Fix the ailment, then force them to work, pretty simple as I see it.

So when I say you have a philosophy based around the idea of fixing the ailments of "lazy bastards" (your words, not mine) for free so that you can force them to work, how am I being overdramatic? Your words are right there.

You can't accuse people of committing "ATS silliness" when your words are preserved for posterity for all to see.

You claim in subsequent comments that all in the UK are "happy to pay more taxes so other fellow citizens get free healthcare," but I'm calling BS on that, because I've seem MANY people from the UK unhappy with both their taxation system and their healthcare system.

Now, how is guilty of ATS silliness?















Psssst...It's not me, but it's either me or you.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

It exists already in other countries.
Its not taking extra. ITS GIVING A REBATE.
?"using violence against your neighbour???" Are you talking to someone else...That isn't my conversation I'm not sure what your on about.

You have to tax people to pay for a system like the NHS, correct? You were praising the NHS, but, there is nothing great about using state violence to force people into involuntary taxation.

Taxation is not voluntary, you either pay taxes or you go to jail. If you attempt to resist, you'll more than likely wind up shot.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Ranked by whom?

And if it's a comparison with the mandates in the Affordable Care Act, I'm surprised we made the top 10.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: ketsuko

Nice little Vignette . Convenient too.

Yes Ill pay an extra 25 cents for a coffee, rather than dish out half a million for hospitaluzation.

LOL...please, research how many people have had to spend half a million for hospitalization, then stop pretending like your comment is not a convenient hyperbole.

What about people like me, who only go to the doctor for an annual check up and get told that I'm in great health and that they'll see me next year? Where would my awesome return on investment be if I were getting taxed extra for one visit per year? I put a lot of time and effort and research and intelligence into how I live my life in order to stay healthy and in shape for longevity's and quality-of-life's sake...I take personal responsibility for my own body and don't expect others to contribute to a massive pot of gold from which hospitals can take for my bills (or take my money for their bills).

What you fail to see is that life is always better with choice, even if you have to choose between a turd and a cup of diarrhea. I should have the ability to choose if I want extensive health insurance (because this is about insurance, not access to care), or if I prefer to have just a catastrophic plan, or no plan at all. Nothing--not one thing--in our constitution gives our federal government the authority to take over America's health insurance industry, and it's precisely because that's not how our country was designed to be or what our government was created to do.

Yet, here we are, with our inept SCOTUS dictating that it's okay, as long as the mandate to have insurance is a tax (which it's not, it's a goddam fine for refusing to buy a product that the government tells me I have to have...overreach, much?). It's utter BS. If you can't understand that, then having a discussion about it is relatively pointless, because you'll never understand, just like I'll never understand the 'why' behind how much of how the UK is controlled and run by their government--I mean, seriously, why does the royal family even exist?

a reply to: zazzafrazz

That is the problem. Same in prisons, though i don't want to go off topic with that. Point is: we have monetized services that should not be monetized. At least, not like it is. A person being paid a wage for work done....that is one thing. An "industry" built up around the persons work...that is where the issue lies.

Humanitarianism is not promoted with monetary gain.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: grainofsand
So, come on US based ATS members, what exactly is so bad about citizens being happy to pay more taxes so other fellow citizens get free healthcare?
Would you prefer them to starve in the gutter and bleed out due to their ailment?
Are their lives worth less because they were born in #hole housing estates?

I am happy to fund the poor in the UK when it comes to medical care.
Medical care assists in providing the workforce.
Is that not obvious?

You want to know what is so bad?

We live almost paycheck to paycheck now, and we are getting taxed over 40% between state/federal/local just on income. And we are in no way rich. We do not make six figures, and you are telling us that we are not generous enough because we don't want to be taxed even more.

When you pin people down and ask them what a person's fair share in tax liability is, they will usually tell you that a person ought to not be asked for more than a 1/3 of their income total, but we're well past that mark. And it's never enough. They always want more.

It really sucks to realize that when you go to work, none of the work you are doing is actually going to support your family until sometime on Wednesday.

Sounds terrible with your income tax if you are saying it takes until Wednesday before you start earning for yourself!
I know our nations are apples and oranges but here's a snapshot on our taxes just to show the situation in the UK:
This is an example of someone working 40 hours a week on minimum wage:

Minimum wage is £6.50 per hour, 40 hours = £260 before deductions.
Income Tax = £11.23
National Insurance = £12.60 (Contributions for welfare benefits & State pension)
Take home pay = £236.17
So total tax/deductions equates to 3.66 hours of the weeks work.

Source www.listentotaxman.com...

Now, unlike the US we are massively taxed on goods that we buy. Typically prices in stores include 5% to 20% tax which goes to the government, depending on the product. I understand you call it sales tax in the US and it is administered by states, while much lower, and some states do not even charge it.
Note, food and children's clothes are exempt from this tax.

Petrol, alcohol, and tobacco products are subject to their own 'sales tax' and this is typically huge.
Petrol, buy £1.00 of fuel, about 60 pence goes to the government = 60%
Beer, 44 pence per pint is tax, typical pint in a pub near me is £2.90 = 15%
Wine, £2.00 per bottle is tax, cheapest wine at supermarket is around £3.00 = 66%
Spirits, £7.90 per 700ml bottle is tax, cheapest vodka is around £10.00 = 79%
Cigarettes, £6.52 per 20 pack is tax on a packet which sells at £8.23 = 79%

So, looking at the above, I am so glad that our people do not have to pay into a separate monthly insurance scheme to fund their healthcare. Those huge sales taxes cover it.

If I may ask, as you said your income taxes are crippling, how much do you have to pay each month for your health insurance?

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Sorry, I can't get behind your apparent philosophy of 'fix 'em for free so we can have forced labor.' That sounds like you're a charitable organization that fixes broken tractors so you can use them on a farm...pretty reprehensible viewpoint, honestly.

Classic ATS silliness bleating that I've said something so terrible.
Stop with the drama queen stuff, it is easier to help someone and help them to become a productive part of society if they have no medical ailments.
I support my taxes funding the treatment of their ailments.
All the rest of it is your invention alone, but I will say that lazy bastards have nothing to whine about if their physical ailments are fixed by the taxpayer.

Ummm...let's quote you directly, here, mate:

originally posted by: grainofsand
Fix the ailment, then force them to work, pretty simple as I see it.

So when I say you have a philosophy based around the idea of fixing the ailments of "lazy bastards" (your words, not mine) for free so that you can force them to work, how am I being overdramatic? Your words are right there.

You can't accuse people of committing "ATS silliness" when your words are preserved for posterity for all to see.

You claim in subsequent comments that all in the UK are "happy to pay more taxes so other fellow citizens get free healthcare," but I'm calling BS on that, because I've seem MANY people from the UK unhappy with both their taxation system and their healthcare system.

Now, how is guilty of ATS silliness?

First, I am not your mate, but I assume you realised that anyway.

OK, 'force them to work' in the sense that by fixing peoples ailments then they have no excuse to sit on their arse claiming welfare benefits.
You may not like that attitude but hey, I couldn't give a toss. I resent my taxes going to lazy bastards, of which there are many, but I am happy for my taxes to fund the NHS.
Got any links to polls or studies in the UK where people have said they do not want the NHS to be funded by general taxation?
I guarantee you will find none.


*Edit*
First simple search...
Half of voters happy to pay more tax to fund NHS – poll
Britons back further welfare cuts, says poll

a reply to: SlapMonkey

LIke I said, till you have it, you will never ever ever get it.
*shrugs* your loss.
ETA:
You mention nowhere in the constitution does it mention that the Government can take over the health insurance system. There is your problem, stop thinking in term INSURANCE. that is a corporation, the longer you do the longer they rule over everyones life. Why should the constitution protect the fracking Insurance companies, are you serious?

It is about health CARE, NOT health insurance. Not assigning a dollar code value to every procedure, visit medicine. Take insurance out of your mind. And start thinking about health care not health insurance, but I really can't explain it to Americans, you just don't get it, you have been sscammed by the insurance industry for too long.
Service costs need to be reduced. The only reason they cost so much is because of the dollar value insurance COMPANIES ATTACH TO IT,. When the people pay for themselves, then the insurance companies need to start getting competitive they become secondary choice.....prices drop. CAPICHE?

No one is paying extra in tax. If anything you can get a rebate if you opt out and get private cover and the choice of private doctor.

You are all obsessed with protecting a Insurance conglomerate scam. It is laughable that the constitution gets brought in....hey they said all men were created equal and yet they had slaves for hundreds of years, women who couldn't volte an black people couldn't sit on a white bus just 50 years ago,,,,so don't go throwing the all revered constitution in my face when it is conveniently ignored so many times.

WHERE DOES the constitution does say you can spy on every part of my online or phone day, but they do it anyway....cherry picking.

originally posted by: CranialSponge

Yup.

I'll also happily pay an extra $3 on my bi-weekly paycheque so as to not have to dish out $150,000 in one shot to some doctor or hospital if I break my leg.

And that extra $.50 for my Happy Meal ? No problem ! It sure beats having to pay a $1500 monthly insurance premium just in case someone in my family cuts their finger and needs stitches.

No paper work to have to fill out whilst my family member's intestines are falling out of their gut in the ER, no crossing my fingers in the hopes that my insurance company will cover the cast my kid needs on their wrist. No surprise bills arriving in the mail informing me that some 3rd party insurance company decided not to cover the cost of the 2-day hospital stay.

No having to get routine bloodwork or proof of health status regularly to keep my health coverage current and covered with some 3rd party insurance company. No having to prove non-existent previous health conditions in order to be given the privilege of some 3rd party to cover my family's health care needs if and when the need arises.

Nope. All I do is give my NHS number to the medical secretary sitting at the front desk of whatever hospital or doctor's office we decided to walk in to at that current moment in time, and the rest takes care of itself.

No need for nothing. Just simply being born in my country automatically gives me health care coverage and an NHS number to hand over to the girl sitting at the reception desk when I want to say "hi" to a doctor.

Yup.

Peace of mind knowing that we don't have to get a second mortgage on our home when the hubby runs the lawnmower over his foot is well worth that extra $.25 for that cup of coffee at Starbucks, thank you very much.

Exactly.... it's actually ridiculous and barbaric when I think about and look at the US system.