What would you do? A hypothectical question

Imagine that you live in a town where there is a gang. A gang of armed men who wear body armor that go around enforcing a set of rules that you may or may not be fully aware of. While at the same time, this gang is allowed to break the rules and enforce the rules, any way it pleases.
Your income is directly taxed and given to this gang so they can buy cars, gas, weapons, jailhouses with cells, etc.

Imagine that one day, you are riding as passenger in vehicle down a road that has a perpendicular road (T intersection) off to the right. You do not have a stop sign but the other road has a single sign when their road ends meeting yours.
A gang member comes speeding into the intersection, running the stop sign, and slamming on his brakes to come to a stop just before "t-boning" the car you are riding in, which would have smashed directly into your body.
The driver of your car also slammed on her brakes as a reaction to brace for a collision. This gives you a moment to look over and look the thug in the eyes and shake your head at the close call he just caused.

The driver starts to accelerate after gathering herself only to see that she is being pulled over by the same goon. He approaches the car and asks for both the driver and the passenger's drivers licenses. The driver asks why she is being pulled over and the gang member does not respond, so she ask again. He demands both licenses and asks why she stopped in the middle of the road. What would you do? Do you give the thug your license or withhold?

Before you or the driver can hand over your license, the gangster notices one of the side mirrors is missing and tells the driver that he could write her a ticket for not maintaining her vehicle. He looks at you a demands the license. You obey because you do not want to cause a problem for the driver.

The thug comes back, after 20 minutes, at tells the driver that she failed to file her paper work on time and never paid the late fees for her vehicle registration. He tells her that he is going to have the car impounded and that we will have to walk. The driver informs the thug that she is pregnant and he does not care. What would you do? Just get out of the car and walk? Ask for another thug to help enforce traffic violation his fellow gang member did?

Now, the driver is upset because she is feeling like she is getting the short end of the stick. She starts to get upset and yell. She opens the door and gets out and points her finger at the thug...

He tazes her. He tazes your pregnant girlfriend, the driver, in the middle of the street. What do you do?
You get out of the car to defend her, to help her, you just react and the thug shoots you.
You are now lying there, dying. Knowing that the next step after you bleed out is that they are going to take the driver. Put her in handcuffs. Put her in a caged car without her consent. Take her to a building and lock her in a cage.

All because you shook your head.

a reply to: imnotanother

So this cop You are talking about is a real Ass. You guys got screwed...

Ok. I would not hand over My licence. Then I'd grab the cop by the Throat, and slam him down to the ground while getting His gun.
Then point it at Him and Say, "You are one hell of an Ass. This time Your ways have been stopped. I will shoot you if You move one muscle."
Keep pointing it at Him while You get back into Your car, and drive away... (Just sayin.LOL!!) Syx...

a reply to: imnotanother

You don't like the police much , do you .

I'd say this was a fantasy.......if it weren't so damn likely to happen. And probably has

a reply to: imnotanother

What would you do? A hypothectical question

By the end of your story it is to late to do anything but bleed out and hope your pregnant friend's fetus was not killed or suffered permanent damage by the tazer. Sad story whether true or not.

a reply to: hutch622

I never said anything about the police

I would say answer number one is not:

1) Rise from the dead to post about it on ATS.

Therefore I have to assume that you are either commenting upon an event you did not source or are merely engaging in a worst-case scenario thought exercise.

In that event: The driver failed to live up to her legal obligations regarding registering the vehicle. Driving is a regulated privilege, not a right. So she should have expected the car to be impounded if she took it on public roads knowing it was not legal. She knowingly broke the rules and tempted the consequences.

If an officer tazed anyone for merely raising their voice and pointing a finger ( yes it happens sometimes ) then that officer should be punished accordingly. Assault is a crime and it's a shame more cops don't face charges for it.

Regarding "your" experience of being asked for ID and murdered in cold blood? Asking for your ID was legal, as all adults MUST have valid and legal identification on them at all times in public. As for your having been shot to death? A jury of your peers will deal with that.

Sorry you're dead dude. Sucks.

a reply to: imnotanother

Oh , in that case get a bigger gang with bigger weapons and hunt him down . Wait , you cant as you are dead .

originally posted by: Hefficide

I would say answer number one is not:

1) Rise from the dead to post about it on ATS.

Therefore I have to assume that you are either commenting upon an event you did not source or are merely engaging in a worst-case scenario thought exercise.

In that event: The driver failed to live up to her legal obligations regarding registering the vehicle. Driving is a regulated privilege, not a right. So she should have expected the car to be impounded if she took it on public roads knowing it was not legal. She knowingly broke the rules and tempted the consequences.

If an officer tazed anyone for merely raising their voice and pointing a finger ( yes it happens sometimes ) then that officer should be punished accordingly. Assault is a crime and it's a shame more cops don't face charges for it.

Regarding "your" experience of being asked for ID and murdered in cold blood? Asking for your ID was legal, as all adults MUST have valid and legal identification on them at all times in public. As for your having been shot to death? A jury of your peers will deal with that.

Sorry you're dead dude. Sucks.

If the passenger was not driving the car, why would he have to provide a his driver's license? He would not have to provide ID if he was not suspected of committing a crime.

It is not a crime to shake your head at a law enforcer breaking the law.

Regarding the cars legality, I do agree somewhat. But if she filed the paper work a day late and there is a fee, is it the fee that makes the car illegal in your eyes? Enough to impound a person's car? Doesn't that seem like a shakedown? And I disagree about it being a privileged. People make vehicles and roads. Not cops, lawyers, or governments.

a reply to: imnotanother

You can disagree as an opinion absolutely. But the laws are very clear that driving is a privilege. That is why vehicles and drivers are licensed. Some places even require bike licensing, though I think that's overkill. But most places you are free to use public roads on bikes or on foot without licensing.

As for cars and roads being made by people: Roads are made by civil employees using tax money and cars are made by for profit corporations. People make nuclear bombs as well - and obviously that doesn't imply that they should be universally accessible.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: imnotanother

You can disagree as an opinion absolutely. But the laws are very clear that driving is a privilege. That is why vehicles and drivers are licensed. Some places even require bike licensing, though I think that's overkill. But most places you are free to use public roads on bikes or on foot without licensing.

As for cars and roads being made by people: Roads are made by civil employees using tax money and cars are made by for profit corporations. People make nuclear bombs as well - and obviously that doesn't imply that they should be universally accessible.

Yes, you are the perfect response for this thread and the whole purpose.

Your viewpoint on this whole situation is how a majority of people would feel/react. You don't stand up for yourself. You are told how to live.

When an armed force or gang comes around and tells you how to live...that is not living. Now I know you are stuck thinking in how you are told to think but you honestly think that it is okay for a thug to run a stop sign and almost hit you, get upset because you shake your head, and feels like he has the right to pull you over for what initially? stopping in the middle of the road? Is he going to write himself a ticket? Can you write him a ticket? Does he lose his privilege?
Where is the traction on the slippery slope?

a reply to: Hefficide

I never said anything about the police

Apparently you did not get the memo as i had .

It is not a crime to shake your head at a law enforcer breaking the law.

Apparently the parameters have changed . Now i am just confused . Was it a gang or the police .

originally posted by: hutch622
a reply to: Hefficide

I never said anything about the police

Apparently you did not get the memo as i had .

It is not a crime to shake your head at a law enforcer breaking the law.

Apparently the parameters have changed . Now i am just confused . Was it a gang or the police .

You are too caught up in semantics. Of course the story's gang is the police. That is obvious. But I have never used the words police. Law enforcer is one who enforces law. If the Capo/Prez/King makes the laws, the thugs/henchmen/gangs/police enforce them.

a reply to: imnotanother

Obeying traffic laws and standing up for oneself are absolutely not the same thing. They're not even in the same ballpark.

You are playing semantic games with concepts that seem to elude you. There is no such thing as absolute freedom in a group dynamic. Well, there can be - visit Somalia and get a gander at what it looks like. Oh, just so you know, there will be gangs of armed thugs there too. But they won't have the color of law to answer to. But they are free. As free to shoot you down as you are to spontaneously open fire on them.

These are high school level rhetoric exercises to be frank.

Well, to start with I would handle the situation better. Whether you like it or not, when a cop stops you they have authority and are a dictator at that point. Whatever they say goes, if they do something they're not supposed to you need to bring it up to IA later, or make a note of it on the report so you have it as evidence in court.

The cop pulls you over. From your point of view the cop was at fault, but from their point of you, you could have been at fault. Since they have the authority that's how it's going to go.

After pulling you over they see your registration is expired and that your car is missing a mirror. They are supposed to do this in a traffic stop. It's the primary method of keeping safe vehicles on the boards, and frankly you weren't keeping up so it's just a matter of time before you were caught.

The driver needs to give their license, as a passenger you don't need to carry ID (depending on the state), but you have no legal standing at the moment of the stop. You're better off giving it over to keep things civil for all, and again get a record of it in a report (getting it on camera helps too). Improper police conduct cannot be fought in the moment, only in the courtroom. If you have no ID on you (or don't believe you'll be serached for one) state you have no ID. Instead they'll ask for your name and look you up in a facial database to confirm your identity.

If they take your car, you should be able to make a case somewhere. A ride to the impound lot, a ride home, or wherever else. If they drive off, call 911 and say you were just abandoned on a road and need to get back home safely.

As far as getting out to confront the officer goes, traffic stops are the highest danger moment for the police. In each and every one their adrenaline is pumping. They are trained to escalate the level of force of whatever you do, and they are equipped to do so. If you clench your fists, they'll grab their baton. If you throw a punch, they'll taze you. If you grab a gun, they'll shoot you. If you get into a shoot out they'll use their armored car, grab the heavy guns from the trunk, and turn your vehicle, and you into swiss cheese. If you run, their cars go further and faster and they can track you effortlessly from the air.

Do not confront officers, instead comply. Then bring it up to the courts after the fact.

It's far from a perfect system, but that's all there is right now.

originally posted by: Hefficide
a reply to: imnotanother

Obeying traffic laws and standing up for oneself are absolutely not the same thing. They're not even in the same ballpark.

It all depends on your perspective and we all have a biased opinion. Your opinion, obviously, is that you obey all laws That is fine, you are like 99.99%.

People like me come alone every once and a bit and say, "why?" The county I live in posts their mugshots online daily. The number one thing that everyone is arrested for is "Driving without a License."
I know you will say that they are breaking the law because they are not doing the proper hoop jumping (giving them your money) and that driving is a privilege.
Well, the roads are paid with tax dollars. So are the city sewers.

Do you need to pay a fee and ask for the privilege to take a crap every morning?!
Good day

EDIT: www.lawfulpath.com... This is a link to a lot of sources showing that driving and using the highways for personal use is a right and not a privilege. Only when used for commercial purpose does it become a privilege.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Well, to start with I would handle the situation better. Whether you like it or not, when a cop stops you they have authority and are a dictator at that point. Whatever they say goes, if they do something they're not supposed to you need to bring it up to IA later, or make a note of it on the report so you have it as evidence in court.

The cop pulls you over. From your point of view the cop was at fault, but from their point of you, you could have been at fault. Since they have the authority that's how it's going to go.

After pulling you over they see your registration is expired and that your car is missing a mirror. They are supposed to do this in a traffic stop. It's the primary method of keeping safe vehicles on the boards, and frankly you weren't keeping up so it's just a matter of time before you were caught.

The driver needs to give their license, as a passenger you don't need to carry ID (depending on the state), but you have no legal standing at the moment of the stop. You're better off giving it over to keep things civil for all, and again get a record of it in a report (getting it on camera helps too). Improper police conduct cannot be fought in the moment, only in the courtroom. If you have no ID on you (or don't believe you'll be serached for one) state you have no ID. Instead they'll ask for your name and look you up in a facial database to confirm your identity.

If they take your car, you should be able to make a case somewhere. A ride to the impound lot, a ride home, or wherever else. If they drive off, call 911 and say you were just abandoned on a road and need to get back home safely.

As far as getting out to confront the officer goes, traffic stops are the highest danger moment for the police. In each and every one their adrenaline is pumping. They are trained to escalate the level of force of whatever you do, and they are equipped to do so. If you clench your fists, they'll grab their baton. If you throw a punch, they'll taze you. If you grab a gun, they'll shoot you. If you get into a shoot out they'll use their armored car, grab the heavy guns from the trunk, and turn your vehicle, and you into swiss cheese. If you run, their cars go further and faster and they can track you effortlessly from the air.

Do not confront officers, instead comply. Then bring it up to the courts after the fact.

It's far from a perfect system, but that's all there is right now.

That would be the perfect way to handle this situation: OBEY!!!

Obey when they break the laws. Obey when they break the laws while violating your rights. Obey while they beat you because of adrenaline. OBEY OBEY OBEY.

But like I said above, I'm that person that comes around every so often and asks, "why?"
When did it become okay to have this above the law, tax funded, military base in every town? With their policy officers driving around collecting the shakedown money for violations they do not respect themselves? When? Why?

For the better of the group (state)? Whoa whoa whoa.

Does not matter if you're completely in the right and the "gang" member caused the entire kafuffle. He's armed. Body armour, taser, gun.
If this "gang" member wants to see my ID, I'm handing it over, whether it's a cop, Hell's Angel, or one of the Sons of Anarchy.
I tend to try to stay alive and he's the one with the gun....

a reply to: imnotanother

Before anyone handed anything over, call the station, demand they send someone else out because the jerk almost hit you, and now he's harassing you because of his own mistake. Most of them have dash cams these days. If someone actually got tazed? At the least, a serious lawsuit. At the least.

originally posted by: imnotanother
But like I said above, I'm that person that comes around every so often and asks, "why?"
When did it become okay to have this above the law, tax funded, military base in every town? With their policy officers driving around collecting the shakedown money for violations they do not respect themselves? When? Why?

For the better of the group (state)? Whoa whoa whoa.

I didn't say it was ok, but they have the legal authority to kill you and their training tells them that you are a threat, you are going to kill them, and if they don't shoot first they won't be going home that night.

Being confrontational in the moment is a good way to get yourself injured or killed. Even if you are the victor and subdue the officer, you have now assaulted an officer and are guilty of something else, that you will be hunted down for. How is that a winning line of action?