Russia 'lost 220 troops' in Ukraine - Nemtsov report

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

the violence would stop? in what world would the violence stop if putin pulled out his support for novvorociya? why do you think the violence would stop? why please just tell me.

Because with no hope of being recognized as a state by the only nation that would recognize them, there would be no further need for the separatists to fight. They could all go back to Russia and Ukraine could start rebuilding.

a reply to: DJW001

so you actualy think the people of east ukraine, if ignored, would just kind of give up? dude they dgaf who recognizes them, THEY PROCLAIMED THEIR OWN INDEPENDENCE.

god i dont even have words for you right now.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

so you actualy think the people of east ukraine, if ignored, would just kind of give up? dude they dgaf who recognizes them, THEY PROCLAIMED THEIR OWN INDEPENDENCE.

Without help from Russia military the separatists would have been dealt with long before now.

They can proclaim their independence all they want, but until Ukraine recognizes that independence they still are part of Ukraine.

Now since Russia really doesn't want them to leave Ukraine, and Russia will not bring them in as part of Russia what other choice could they make but to give up.

In an interview with the Interfax news agency, Lavrov said Ukraine needed a constitutional reform "with the participation of all regions and all political powers" that would allow the two rebellious eastern regions to remain part of the country.

www.reuters.com...

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

so you actualy think the people of east ukraine, if ignored, would just kind of give up? dude they dgaf who recognizes them, THEY PROCLAIMED THEIR OWN INDEPENDENCE.

god i dont even have words for you right now.

No they didn't there was nothing claiming independence other than some people from Russia claiming they were in charge. And by the way wasn't voted in somehow just decided they should be in charge like strelkov. Now how can a Russian just take control unless the people he is controlling were from Russia as well. Most in eastern Ukraine just want this to stop they aren't worried about independence.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

i dont trust your judgement when you say things like they wouldnt have lasted long without russian help. many members of the dpr are former military and police. and like i said they would have had funding no matter what. and the Ukrainian army was not in any state to fight a war with people who separated from Ukraine in spirit a long time ago.he war would have been much worse without russias participation but it would have undoubtedly been fought.

well they can gain their independence once Ukraine is defeated too. and Ukrainians have already started turning on their government. they've already alienated most of their people through various means since even before the war and you cant be victorious if your people aren't behind you.

and what russia says and what russia wants are two different things. they will go with whatever leads to a Ukraine free of the European union. but thanks for the link, ill be sure to ignore it.

a reply to: dragonridr

No they didn't there was nothing claiming independence other than some people from Russia claiming they were in charge.

what about their referendum?

Most in eastern Ukraine just want this to stop they aren't worried about independence.

no dude they actually do care. east ukraine is basically the powerhouse of ukraine, much like germany is to the EU. and for a long time they have been # on by the government. they produce all the goods, kiev sucks up the wealth, and they get nothing in return. this has been an issue to the people in east ukraine for a long long time. being shelled and driven out of their homes is just another layer to the cake.

a reply to: dragonridr

And yet Kiev with their democratically elected government are apparently a junta. While the DPR and LPR whose governments were essentially seized by force represent the will of the people. I don't know how some people manage mental gymnastics of this level.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: dragonridr

And yet Kiev with their democratically elected government are apparently a junta. While the DPR and LPR whose governments were essentially seized by force represent the will of the people. I don't know how some people manage mental gymnastics of this level.

Odd isn't it a group of Russians come in claim they are in charge of a rebellion in eastern Ukraine. And Russians are told it's a rebellion in eastern Ukraine. Don't even know how they could believe that. What's even better is places the chechens have taken over they are instituting shria law In Ukraine. Sure the Ukrainians agree with this. Oh wait they have no choice they are being killed if they dont.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

i dont trust your judgement when you say things like they wouldnt have lasted long without russian help.

Hard to accept the truth I see.

many members of the dpr are former military and police. and like i said they would have had funding no matter what.

That is all fine and dandy, but you seem to miss the point altogether...I will try this again.

Without help from Russia the separatists would have been dealt with long ago...because they would have run out of ammo and not have half the weapons they do today...did that clear it up.

and the Ukrainian army was not in any state to fight a war with people who separated from Ukraine in spirit a long time ago.

Against the separatists themselves they would have no problem, but put Russia behind the separatists and then no they weren't.

he war would have been much worse without russias participation but it would have undoubtedly been fought.

For the separatists it would have. And the fighting would have been short.

well they can gain their independence once Ukraine is defeated too.

By who, remember Russia isn't fighting in Ukraine...or are you admitting the fact we all already know, because the separatists on their own couldn't do it which is why Russia is helping them.

and what russia says and what russia wants are two different things.

SO you think?

they will go with whatever leads to a Ukraine free of the European union. but thanks for the link, ill be sure to ignore it.

Well Russia has no say as to what Ukraine does, but keep believing they do as all Russia has done is make it an easier decision concerning the EU and more than likely NATO. Meaning they will do what they need to do to become part of one or both organizations.

And you ignoring something is nothing unexpected as you aren't really looking for the truth...Unless it makes Russia look good.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

no dude they actually do care. east ukraine is basically the powerhouse of ukraine, much like germany is to the EU.

And yet Ukraine still functions as a nation while their supposed powerhouse is being occupied by foreign forces...not much of a powerhouse if you really look at it, but keep up with the fantasy as it is amusing.

being shelled and driven out of their homes is just another layer to the cake.

And had Russia not created the problem in the east they wouldn't have been, because I need to ask were they being shelled before Russia instigated the problem in Ukraine?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

alright well you sit here and speculate and ill just fall back on what i know of war history. i love how you believe your speculation is the truth that i find hard to accept. hahaha. are you british?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

hahaha ukraine is barely functioning. largely people are impoverished and having to spend entire paychecks just to get a couple gallons of gas. in what sense of the word is that functioning to you?

russia created the problem? really. do you actually believe that? i cant tellwhether you are pro or youll just say anything to defend your honor.

i hate the word fantasist but thats about the only way i can think to describe you.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: tsurfer2000h

hahaha ukraine is barely functioning. largely people are impoverished and having to spend entire paychecks just to get a couple gallons of gas. in what sense of the word is that functioning to you?

russia created the problem? really. do you actually believe that? i cant tellwhether you are pro or youll just say anything to defend your honor.

i hate the word fantasist but thats about the only way i can think to describe you.

Russia's economy falls in first quarter as woes mount

www.bbc.com...

Things are so bad in Russia that one-fifth of the country can barely afford to buy food
www.businessinsider.com...

So yeah Russia is destroying Ukraine economy of course theirs is tanking with it.Guess they are barely a government as well lol.

a reply to: dragonridr

i fail to see the relevance to what i said.

a reply to: dragonridr

Guess they are barely a government as well lol.

wait did i say ukraines government wasnt a government? what are you talking about?

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

so you actualy think the people of east ukraine, if ignored, would just kind of give up? dude they dgaf who recognizes them, THEY PROCLAIMED THEIR OWN INDEPENDENCE.

god i dont even have words for you right now.

Wars are won by those who survive. Without Russian aid, the separatists would have lost a year ago. All Putin's vaunted "humanitarian aid" did is prolong their suffering. I think Putin actually enjoys the thought of innocent people suffering because of his supposedly magnanimous gesture.

a reply to: DJW001

well cant argue with that logic. they would have been wiped out because you said so. good stuff junior.

ffs pleeeeeeeeeeeeease learn some history. all of you.

a reply to: DJW001

and please stop trying to hurt my feelings by insulting putin. it doesnt work like that. it just makes you look weak. argue the point. be an adult.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

well cant argue with that logic. they would have been wiped out because you said so. good stuff junior.

ffs pleeeeeeeeeeeeease learn some history. all of you.

No, they would have been wiped out because they are completely surrounded; they are besieged. Neither am I trying to hurt your feelings by pointing out Putin's flaws. What strategic value did he derive from prolonging the stalemate in Eastern Ukraine? He needs to procure Donbass in order to provide a secure land link to his Crimean exclave. The only way he can decisively do this is by fielding a superior, openly Russian, army. (Just ask Victor, whose undisguised Russian patriotism I respect.)

For some reason, Putin will not commit to this bold strategy; instead, he lets innocent Russians and Russian speaking Ukrainians suffer. Some of them have to dig coal underground with their hands to make enough money to afford to eat. It is madness, and the most humane course of action would be to urge surrender under the auspices of the UN. The only other reasonable alternative is direct military confrontation, which you could then call "liberation," and the rest of the world would call "conquest." Why do you think Putin is letting the population of Eastern Ukraine suffer so?

a reply to: DJW001

well once again ukraine is damn important to russia, if it wasnt they wouldnt be doing what they are doing. so i dont know why you are surprised.

and no they wouldnt have been wiped out, its not a video game. you dont ust loose because you are surrounded or out numbered. it doesnt work that way! name one other ttime in history that this was the case and ill name a half dozen where it wasnt. lets lay this out. separatism in east ukraine has been fomenting for at least a good decade now. when the coup happened more than enough military equipment was seized by the separatists. individual interests started funding and arming the separatists maybe even before russia was. Ukrainian were selling separatists arms from the very beginning! its not a sports game where there are two teams there are hundreds of oligarchs some who even have their own private armies fighting among themselves. you idea that they would have simply been wiped out because they were surrounded makes absolutely no sense.

and last but not least we have no idea to what extent russia has even helped the separatists. might be a little might be alot. Nemtzov can make all the claims he want (well not anymore he cant) but he doesnt have single shred of evidence for ANY of his claims.

just think. thiiiiiink. what makes me so mad about you guys is not that you share an opposing viewpoint its that you dont think. you just spit out whatever western leaders feed you and never look past it. there is so much information to learn about ukraine past what the east or west msm tells us.

and no the most humane course of action would be to give the east what THEY want. what is humane about calling them terrorists after they held a referendum and then sending the army to attack them?