Freddie Gray's Death Ruled a Homicide; 6 Officers Charged!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

The glove fits.

EDIT I can't believe you're defending OJ!!!

LOL, no, just that it was the catchphrase then.

Was OJ guilty? I'm still not sure.

a reply to: Greathouse

Reasonable Suspicion is one step below Probable cause.

If I am watching a 4 way stop and I see a vehicle travelling at a high rate of speed in the middle of the intersection I have reasonable suspicion a crime occurred. Which is to say the driver in question could not be travelling at that rate of speed from a complete stop, suggesting he ran the stop sign.

I stop the vehicle, make contact, explain the reasons etc. During my conversation he states he ran the stop sign, which supports the information I had. reasonable suspicion a crime occurred, him running the stop sign, allowed me to make a traffic stop to continue my investigation, leading to probable cause that a crime in fact occurred, resulting in a citation.

*****

If I am driving down the road and observe a vehicle making numerous infractions - inconsistent speed, intra-lane weaving, crossing center / fog line more than a couple of times, wide right turns etc I have reasonable suspicion a crime has occurred - IE driving while intoxicated / under the influence of drugs, resulting in a traffic stop to investigate.

Observations to proceed from R/S to P/C.

The manner the vehicle is stopped (where its stopped) is noted.

Contact with driver -
Any signs of open containers / illegal items in plain sight. Does the driver have an intoxicating odor coming from him? Is there a smell of burnt narcotics present? Observations of the driver - red eyes? gnashing teeth? inability to answer simple questions. inability to simply multi task - speaking to me while handing me his library card instead of drivers license. inability to answer the same question with the same answers - have you had any alcoholic beverages to drink tonight / if yes how many / how long ago / etc.

Based on this contact it will determine if I ask the driver to step out to participate in the road side Olympics, IE field sobriety tests. Based on the results of those tests and further observations of those tests will result in R/S to P/C that the driver is operating a motor vehicle under the influence, resulting in arrest and further testing tests for DWI/OWI.

Assuming all results are positive and the BAC shows over .08% the driver is charged and my report / PC is sent to the PA. My PC (for felony) would denote the charges and the evidence to support those charges, including noting observations and failing of all tests.

Since I am not a part of the legal system I have no concerns about my evidence. How that evidence is shared is dependent upon state law and the court system process.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

If they knew he had an active warrant then their actions to detain him would have been lawful. Considering he ran he would be braking the law by resisting a lawful arrest, detention or stop.

An active warrant alone is not enough to arrest. It is only enough to detain.

Once the warrant is confirmed then you have PC for the arrest on the warrant.

Now, if he is wanted for questioning for another crime then he could be held on the 24 hours (or whatever Maryland has set up).

a reply to: matafuchs

Fine if they knew him then why did they not report that he was stopped for an outstanding warrant?
Did they just forget why they stopped him and went with the he just ran and the knife story?

Is it confirmed he was a informant?

originally posted by: WarminIndy
a reply to: Xcathdra

Is this going to be for sovereign Native American tribes as well?

I hope they can get tribal members on board with this.

The 2013 bill references tribal areas so most likely. I don't know the specifics other than its been brought up before and shot down.

a reply to: Xcathdra

from your link on probable cause........

Probable cause is a requirement found in the Fourth Amendment that must usually be met before police make an arrest, conduct a search, or receive a warrant. Courts usually find probable cause when there is a reasonable basis for believing that a crime may have been committed (for an arrest) or when evidence of the crime is present in the place to be searched (for a search)

Again you don't have to submit evidence all you have to do is have a reasonable basis . You are under no obligation to present evidence until the preliminary hearing and then you don't even have to produce all of it that's what discovery is for.

Edit; According to your statements everything is going to get thrown out at the preliminary hearing. After all you've been saying her probable cause isn't any good. I'm done with the issue I'll come back on the 27th when we see who is right.

a reply to: Greathouse
Respectfully I am not going to continue to argue this specific topic with you. I know what I have done over the years and what's been required when I do them.

There is a slight difference in the definition of what probable cause is and what's required in a probable cause statement / affidavit in order to obtain a warrant-charges / search warrant.

A quick idea using Kansas State law -
Affidavit of Probable Cause Law & Legal Definition

An affidavit of probable cause is a sworn statement, typically made by a police officer, that outlines the factual justification for why a judge should consent to an arrest or search warrant or why an arrest made during a crime-in-progress was based on solid evidence that the person in custody is the person who is likely to have committed the crime.

The following is an example of a State Statute on Affidavit of Probable Cause:

K.S.A. 22-2302(1)

Issuance of warrant or summons; availability of supporting affidavit or testimony.

(1) If the magistrate finds from the complaint, or from an affidavit or affidavits filed with the complaint or from other evidence, that there is probable cause to believe both that a crime has been committed and that the defendant has committed it, a warrant for the arrest of the defendant shall issue,****

The PC in question in this case revolves ONLY around the officers actions. It is not going to denote the officers charges in their dealings with Gray, if that makes sense.

I am saying her PC statement doesn't not fully support the charges in question. Hence why I have consistently stated based on whats known to the public.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Which is exactly why the MS Society has ID cards for people with MS, because MSers have been pulled over for reasonable suspicion and it is the only way to get out of the roadside test.

That is how we have to legally get out of it. But I think if one has MS to that extent, they probably should not be driving.

I have MS, so the MS Society tells us all the time that we need to have one.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Yup and in addition to MS, Ketoacidosis is another condition that mimics intoxication. There are signs to look for in the eyes for intoxication. Generally speaking the incidents ive been involved in where it was something other than intoxication has been supported with medical information.

Its why we have investigations and why we should not rush to judgment. With that said if a medical condition prohibits a person from driving in compliance with the law they can still be cited for the infractions leading to the stop.

I note this because I don't want people to think that those conditions are get out of jail free cards.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yup and in addition to MS, Ketoacidosis is another condition that mimics intoxication.

I say that if one has MS to that extent, they need to be off the road.

WOW, this Baltimore police scan on Broadcastify has not shut up this whole evening. A lot of violence there tonight.

They just called in that a guy was jumping on cars yelling that his name is Trayvon. He is 33 years-old. This is Sunday night, can't they rest?

The one funny thing so far I heard tonight...the dispatcher says that a call came in that a woman was calling her boyfriend names, that is why he called 911...the other dispatcher says "oh good grief" just before it got cut off....

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yup and in addition to MS, Ketoacidosis is another condition that mimics intoxication. There are signs to look for in the eyes for intoxication. Generally speaking the incidents ive been involved in where it was something other than intoxication has been supported with medical information.

Its why we have investigations and why we should not rush to judgment. With that said if a medical condition prohibits a person from driving in compliance with the law they can still be cited for the infractions leading to the stop.

I note this because I don't want people to think that those conditions are get out of jail free cards.

I do agree with that. They need to be pulled over.

Sometimes people with chronic illnesses still try to live like they did before and their judgment on that sometimes isn't the best. Many on are medications that will affect their driving.

a reply to: roadgravel

Why should the cops get a special prosecutor? They can enjoy the same system they worked under and sent people into.

It would actually be beneficial for them to have a special prosecutor because of Mosby's connection with the Grays' family attorney. He was a huge campaign contributor of hers. If there is the slightest possibility that she could be using unethical means to secure a conviction, then her relationship with Murphy could result in the verdict being overturned and the cops walking away from this, escaping all punishment for their actions. It could be a huge mistake on their part, not securing independent counsel to prosecute, particularly in light of the fact that she has a history that can be indicative of extreme bias against the people she is prosecuting.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

The big build up for the even bigger let down.
Then watch the fireworks and see the genda for federalizing the police further advanced.

I absolutely, positively, unequivocally agree with this assessment. And watch the predictable sheeple once again fail to see that they're nothing more than a tool by which to further said agenda.

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: Asktheanimals

The big build up for the even bigger let down.
Then watch the fireworks and see the genda for federalizing the police further advanced.

I absolutely, positively, unequivocally agree with this assessment. And watch the predictable sheeple once again fail to see that they're nothing more than a tool by which to further said agenda.

Blah blah blah. . . over and over with the "ZOMG!!! They're coming for my rights!!!" And over and over it doesn't happen. Sigh. . .

originally posted by: tigertatzen
a reply to: roadgravel

Why should the cops get a special prosecutor? They can enjoy the same system they worked under and sent people into.

It would actually be beneficial for them to have a special prosecutor because of Mosby's connection with the Grays' family attorney. He was a huge campaign contributor of hers. If there is the slightest possibility that she could be using unethical means to secure a conviction, then her relationship with Murphy could result in the verdict being overturned and the cops walking away from this, escaping all punishment for their actions. It could be a huge mistake on their part, not securing independent counsel to prosecute, particularly in light of the fact that she has a history that can be indicative of extreme bias against the people she is prosecuting.

For the record, "Special Prosecutor" is nothing more than a legal term designating a position which ALWAYS exists and was certainly not created just for these cops. Knowledge is power.

a reply to: windword

Really? I don't have a problem with it at all.

I'm sorry...what exactly are you talking about? Did someone mention you or anything about you or what problem you may or may not have? I'm confused...

a reply to: Sremmos80

But if that was the case and it was heroin, he wasn't thrashing around.
Again, not exactly a stimulant.

Doesn't matter with heroin users. Their symptoms can run the gamut from doped up and lethargic to paranoid hallucinations and severe anxiety, especially if they're in need of a fix. And it gets even more volatile when other substances are also being used in conjunction with the drug.

The signs and symptoms of heroin addiction will vary among users based upon genetic makeup, amount of drug used, frequency of use, and dependency on the drug. The most common symptoms of heroin addiction include the following:

Depression
Euphoria
Mood swings
Anxiety
Hostility toward others
Agitation and irritability
Lying about drug use
Avoiding loved ones
Weight loss
Scabs or bruises as the result of picking at the skin
Delusions
Disorientation
Hallucinations
Paranoia

heroin addiction common signs/symptoms

Most people don't think heroin and other opiate derivatives can cause behavior that would seem more consistent with stimulant use, but it's simply not true. It can cause grand mal seizures as well, which can make people "thrash about", (and unless you're watching it happen, it would sound very much like someone just acting out in a tantrum, banging against walls, shouting, etc). It's not a good thing for the prosecution that he popped positive on his tox screen for that substance. But then again, I'm sure they already knew that would happen. None of this is serendipitous, and coincidence does not exist.

a reply to: tigertatzen

I'm sorry...what exactly are you talking about?

You said: "It's very surprising that they were willing to charge depraved heart, but I think that in and of itself may cause issues when people realize what that actually means."

I answered:
"Really? I don't have a problem with it at all."

Then I left the definition of "Depraved Heart Murder":

Depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is an American legal term for an action where a defendant acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death. In a depraved-heart murder a defendant commits an act even though they know their act runs an unusually high risk of causing death or serious bodily harm to someone else. If the risk of death or bodily harm is great enough, ignoring it demonstrates a "depraved indifference" to human life and the resulting death is considered to have been committed with malice aforethought aka premeditation. In most states, depraved-heart killings constitute second-degree murder.

Seems to fit the crime perfectly! Why are you sorry?

a reply to: tigertatzen

No one knows for sure that he tested positive, that is a leaked report. I mean it is likely sure but not a fact yet.

a reply to: jaffo

For the record, "Special Prosecutor" is nothing more than a legal term designating a position which ALWAYS exists and was certainly not created just for these cops. Knowledge is power.

Did someone say anything was created "just for these cops"? I must have missed that part.

For the record, a "special prosecutor" is an independent counsel specifically appointed by the Attorney General or Congress to try criminal cases involving federal officials. They can also be appointed to prosecute law enforcement officials by the state Governor in cases just like this. Their presence acts as insurance against biased counsel and eliminates the conflict of interest often presented in cases just like this. It is not a position that "always exists". Counsel is appointed on an "as needed" basis. The rest of the time, counsel is just a regular prosecutor, going about their normal business.

This was exactly what they were trying to do in the Eric Garner case, to ensure that justice would be done without bias or conflict. Right now, Att. Mosley is running the risk of justice not being done due to her relationship with the Grays' attorney causing a clear conflict of interest. It would be a shame to see that happen.

A recent example:

In his letter to the Governor, Attorney General Schneiderman wrote, "This crisis of confidence is long in the making and has deep roots. But it is not a problem without a solution. A common thread in many of these cases is the belief of the victim’s family and others that the investigation of the death, and the decision whether to prosecute, have been improperly and unfairly influenced by the close working relationship between the county District Attorney and the police officers he or she works with and depends on every day. It is understandable that many New Yorkers feel that it is unfair to charge a local District Attorney with the task of investigating and prosecuting those officers when they are accused of a serious crime committed in the course of their duties."

Attorney General Schneiderman's letter continued, "The question in these difficult cases is not whether a local prosecutor, including one with understandably close ties to his or her fellow local law enforcement officers, is capable of setting aside any personal biases in deciding whether, or how vigorously, to pursue the case. As the State’s chief law enforcement officer, I know that I and the overwhelming majority of my fellow prosecutors are not only capable of doing so, but are conscientious about our ethical duty to see that justice is done in every case. Rather, the question is whether there is public confidence that justice has been served, especially in cases where homicide or other serious charges against the accused officer are not pursued or are dismissed prior to a trial by jury."

The Attorney General wrote, “Subdivision two of Executive Law section 63 currently authorizes you to supersede any local District Attorney on any criminal matter as you deem appropriate by appointing the Attorney General to investigate and prosecute the case.”

Special Counsel NY

(c) Qualifications of the SC

Section 600.3 of the CFR provides that an SC shall be a lawyer from outside the US government "with a reputation for integrity and impartial decision making, and with appropriate experience to ensure that both that the investigation will be conducted ably, expeditiously and thoroughly, and that investigative and prosecutorial decisions will be supported by an informed understanding of the criminal law and DOJ policies."

US Special Prosecutor

Knowledge is power.

Might want to arm yourself with some, then. Seems like you could use it.