Redistribution of wealth... A thorny issue!.. An alternative?

You people are seriously crazy... You want to kill and steal from people that are more successful than you. That's a losers mentality, not an American one. If you want redistribution then work harder. Nobody owes you anything in this world, and nobody gives a # if you fail or feel sorry for yourself.

originally posted by: ketsuko
A problem with making the line workers the most important employees in any operation is that very often they simply know that they are turning screw A in hole B. The ones who know why they are turning screw A in hole B and what to do if something changes that are the ones in the offices with the degrees - they're you engineers and scientists who originally designed the things on the line and understand the entire process from start to finish.

Are you saying their contribution is less important than the guy on the line?

I would say they're equally important. You wouldn't have a product if not for that engineer, but you wouldn't have any product if not for those people on the line.

Wealth redistribution has been underway for 100 years now. The founding of the Federal Reserve kicked it off, then Nixon taking us off the Gold Standard sent it into overdrive. Now the top 1000-2000 families on the planet siphon the collective wealth of humanity because 90% isn't good enough for them, they must own 99.99% of everything.

There isn't enough cash in the world to pay off the collective debts of humanity.

There are no more gold reserves, it is all in private hands which leaves us with the worthless paper.

What needs to be redistributed apparently is Basic Economics 101. Maybe if more people understood that we would not have stupid threads like this.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
So I was just pondering redistribution of wealth...

A sort of reset button on wealth...



And it got me thinking...


Rather than sticking 50k into everyone's bank account and saying...
There you are, help yourself from now...

Why $50k? Why not $100k? That would take a lot of coordination would it routing all that money to 340+ million people. How do they track everyone's bank account and how do they know which one's which?


Would a better and more reasonable alternative be to redistribute prexious metals and minerals...
As well as energy sources...


Where do you hold the metals? You would need a vault. Everyone would have to be armed or have armed guards also.

So we all get a fair share of the Earth's resources...

define "resources".


Now I understand, I haven't worked for that imaginary 50k...
So I don't deserve it to be honest...

you deserve what ever you can get. If the state will donate wealth to you then you deserve it


But I was born on this planet and shouldn't be charged to use its commodities as such...
Not to the extent we are forced into paying...


The market should determine the price of the commodity not the state not an individual.

So how would this work?

Shares?
A monthly sum?

Doesn't brazil have a system like this in their country?

I'll add to the OP...

Medication time!



Discuss amongst yourselves if you wish.

Edit;

Ok where was I...


Shares?
Monthly sum?


Maybe a limited monthly reserve but free of charge and rig worker wages and energy worker charges become a tax contribution rather than out of our pockets, to pay to fix something that should be free, out of our pockets.

How do you determine what is a high demand or rare high cost service and what is low demand or abundant low cost service?

A worker with a more rare/desirable skill-set should be getting a higher pay than a worker with a common or undesirable intry level skill-set.


Or better ideas maybe, I'm all ears.

Maybe worker owned corporations/businesses. Wholly owned. They are not publicly traded.

That and nationalize the federal reserve system and give the states the exclusive right to print the fiat currency.

Redistribution of wealth have been tried and failed miserably on several occations. It is used in just about every nation today too to an extent too of course. I believe it would only further divide us and lead to a full blown class war and who knows what'd happen.

Instead what I'd imagine my rules (changes) for society would be something like this:

1) Full transparancy in government (yes I believe in all sectors except protecting personal information like patient data etc.) and also corporate finance I do think. Military not full transparency law is enforced also for them, classified material should be reconsidered. "National security" not allowed to be loosely thown around. Also compartmentalized signal intelligence documents, presidents should not get "No such program exist" if they do.

2) Abollish current stock market / investment banks in their current form, rework completely and regulate or forbid.

3) A standardized wage based on workforce supply and demand for the particular service you provide (a bit like stock market)

4) Forbid extortion rate loans, no greater than 2-3% rate.

5) Perhaps banks being part of the government and not private sector. (At least demand banks to have much more solvency than currently like 5-10% of inserted capital.) And never ever should private banks or a cartell thereof be allowed to print the nation's money.

6) Strict rules on "printing money", No inflation reqired! If ever done it is distributed to the population equally. It will eventually go back to the government through luxury taxes, this will deter politicians from giving their projects etc. "free" money.

7) A social protection system for the poor and unemployed, a monthly payment, shelter, clothes etc. Minimum stuff needed in a civilized society, current systems are unbalanced, inexistent and not morally justifyable.

8) Tax the rich, proportionally included in the standardized wage. Luxury tax, tax on luxury items bought.

9) Direct democracy, people may call whatever they wish with enough support up for voting similar process like elections (like apparently in Switzerland), happens 4 times a year with election day a national holiday. This includes removing officials from office, which also can be done at any time with enough support.

10) Public governmental debate forums/lecutres where any expert and also at allocated times citizens may challenge government policy and a fully transparent and open debate is held on any subject desired and voted for.

11) Corporations are not people and should have less rights, no lobbying allowed.

12) Money out of politics, donations = bribes = forbidden. Salaries are regulated through the workforce stock system based on supply and demand.

13) Goverment official's bank accounts are not private and is checked by government inspectors for suspicious activity.

14) Away with big brother mentality, governments should serve their populace. Not surveil them for later misuse.

15) Rework copyright laws (and much other laws too) in the favor of the individual while protecting real proprietery rights, protect artistic freedoms. Reduce punishments for this and other petty crime while increasing white collar penalties when big money is involwed.

Yea, something like that perhaps.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Please tell me where you plan to get your energy from?

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: hudsonhawk69
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I vote that we redistribute the wealth the traditional way... By revolution. Kill the rich ans take their money!

And who decides what rich people are bad and good?

Is a Doctor bad?
A entrepreneur who invented a product you use?
What about me im just in the 1% bracket? I pay my taxes in full and obey all laws.

Who acts as judge?

In a traditional revolution the mobs acts as judge jury and executioner. No it's not fair. life isn't fair. It's just the natural order.

originally posted by: avgguy
You people are seriously crazy... You want to kill and steal from people that are more successful than you. That's a losers mentality, not an American one. If you want redistribution then work harder. Nobody owes you anything in this world, and nobody gives a # if you fail or feel sorry for yourself.

And how do you suppose that the U.S. of A. became the great nation that it is today? Revolution my friend. Read a history book.
And yes... People have been killing each other and stealing from each other since the dawn of time... What could be more natural than that?
Working your ass off in an economic environment that is specifically to designed to have and maintain a lower class that works to support the elite? Billions of people work hard every day of their lives and die as poor as the day they started.
The advancement of one person over another by very definition requires the more successful to get ahead by taking more than his share at the expense of others?
It is widely believed in some circles that the Atlantic slave trade was the engine of American economic growth.

originally posted by: hudsonhawk69

originally posted by: avgguy
You people are seriously crazy... You want to kill and steal from people that are more successful than you. That's a losers mentality, not an American one. If you want redistribution then work harder. Nobody owes you anything in this world, and nobody gives a # if you fail or feel sorry for yourself.

And how do you suppose that the U.S. of A. became the great nation that it is today? Revolution my friend. Read a history book.
And yes... People have been killing each other and stealing from each other since the dawn of time... What could be more natural than that?
Working your ass off in an economic environment that is specifically to designed to have and maintain a lower class that works to support the elite? Billions of people work hard every day of their lives and die as poor as the day they started.
The advancement of one person over another by very definition requires the more successful to get ahead by taking more than his share at the expense of others?
It is widely believed in some circles that the Atlantic slave trade was the engine of American economic growth.

What do you think about worker owned corporations competing against traditional non-worker shareholder owned corporations?

I think that can solve many problems without a bloody revolution,coup, or civil war.

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman

originally posted by: hudsonhawk69

originally posted by: avgguy
You people are seriously crazy... You want to kill and steal from people that are more successful than you. That's a losers mentality, not an American one. If you want redistribution then work harder. Nobody owes you anything in this world, and nobody gives a # if you fail or feel sorry for yourself.

And how do you suppose that the U.S. of A. became the great nation that it is today? Revolution my friend. Read a history book.
And yes... People have been killing each other and stealing from each other since the dawn of time... What could be more natural than that?
Working your ass off in an economic environment that is specifically to designed to have and maintain a lower class that works to support the elite? Billions of people work hard every day of their lives and die as poor as the day they started.
The advancement of one person over another by very definition requires the more successful to get ahead by taking more than his share at the expense of others?
It is widely believed in some circles that the Atlantic slave trade was the engine of American economic growth.

What do you think about worker owned corporations competing against traditional non-worker shareholder owned corporations?

I think that can solve many problems without a bloody revolution,coup, or civil war.

A nice dodge of the issue there... Same response, just think of a global economy. Unless your talking about an IT or software company that sells nothing of any real tangibility then that could possibly work. On the other hand... If you pay your third world products suppliers a fair wage your company will go bankrupt. If you are a US based company producing a US produced product then if you pay you employees a fair wage then most probably your opposition who does use child labour will put you out of business.

You can come up with all the enlightened non violent resolutions that you please...

History shows us that those who are not violent are usually raped, killed, destroyed, overthrown by those that are... .!.

What I believe in and what I hope society can also adopt:



1. Food, clothing and shelter is not an option that should be dictated by weather or not you have enough currency to afford it or not. They are a necessity.



2. Borders and division among nations are pointless and we should work towards uniting and making a strong planet instead of a strong nation.



3. Everyone deserves a say in huge world decisions and the only way to get everyone's opinion is through a computer program ran voting system.



4. If government decisions was done through a secure computer program where everyone gets a say in decision that will effect them then we would get rid of most corruption.



5. Life should be about pursuing goals that will make you happy and not just settling for a job that will allow you to make enough money to obtain the illusion you are living free.



6. The people volunteering/teaching/healing/helping/feeding/giving should be living the kind of life celebrities live because they contribute to society. Instead of money how about a contribution point system? The more you help others the more you make. Let's make it a goal to help others instead of yourself.



7. Instead of trying to make ourself successful and only focusing on the progression of our lives we should show true humanity and progress together as members of the same species. How can we solve starvation? How can we prevent people from having to live homeless? We throw away a lot of food, there's enough abandoned houses in the world to give every homeless person a home. We need to stand and unite to do what we think is best for us as humans and not what is best for us as a nation.



Separation through borders, currency systems, and beliefs only hurt us as a species. Think of what we can accomplish if we just adopt the thinking of be happy and allow others to be happy.

a reply to: stopxmove

I agree on a lot of your points including the voting system.

But what does that matter if your populace is uninformed and ignorant of the issues?

I think they need to figure out what the world needs to survive. get rid of poverty. food and water for all. sustainability etc and set that up. the winners will be similar as todays powers; the ones with resources would have strong positions. an agreement on managing the worlds resources with long term views and standards of living the main arguments for demanding a group blocking the resource to compile.

originally posted by: hudsonhawk69

originally posted by: John_Rodger_Cornman

originally posted by: hudsonhawk69

originally posted by: avgguy
You people are seriously crazy... You want to kill and steal from people that are more successful than you. That's a losers mentality, not an American one. If you want redistribution then work harder. Nobody owes you anything in this world, and nobody gives a # if you fail or feel sorry for yourself.

And how do you suppose that the U.S. of A. became the great nation that it is today? Revolution my friend. Read a history book.
And yes... People have been killing each other and stealing from each other since the dawn of time... What could be more natural than that?
Working your ass off in an economic environment that is specifically to designed to have and maintain a lower class that works to support the elite? Billions of people work hard every day of their lives and die as poor as the day they started.
The advancement of one person over another by very definition requires the more successful to get ahead by taking more than his share at the expense of others?
It is widely believed in some circles that the Atlantic slave trade was the engine of American economic growth.

What do you think about worker owned corporations competing against traditional non-worker shareholder owned corporations?

I think that can solve many problems without a bloody revolution,coup, or civil war.

A nice dodge of the issue there... Same response, just think of a global economy. Unless your talking about an IT or software company that sells nothing of any real tangibility then that could possibly work. On the other hand... If you pay your third world products suppliers a fair wage your company will go bankrupt. If you are a US based company producing a US produced product then if you pay you employees a fair wage then most probably your opposition who does use child labour will put you out of business.

You can come up with all the enlightened non violent resolutions that you please...

History shows us that those who are not violent are usually raped, killed, destroyed, overthrown by those that are... .!.

The worker still holds almost all of the cards. Their work is still of value to the non-worker owners. Otherwise why pay them at all?

If enough people strike the non-worker owners will lose money. If they lose enough money(offsetting the cost benefits of the sweat shop labor) they will increase the wage(slightly).

Strong worker unions exist to prevent large business entities from shutting the low wage worker down.

The worker(when united under strong unions) has more leverage than you think. Trust me.

a reply to: John_Rodger_Cornman

A fair point of view to be sure, however I rarely see that here in New Zealand any more. I generally see workers rights and the power of unions slowly eroded year after by Governments interested in only putting money in their rich friends pockets and a nation of people that are more and more willing to let them do so...

Striking can be a powerful thing. These days however unless you are in skilled labour you run the risk of being replaced by someone who doesn't complain. I was the union Delegate at my last job and stood up extensively for my coworkers rights. As a result the company tried to fire me four times in five years. I was constantly in trouble. I was stressed out and kicked around. What for? For a bunch of lazy slacker who didn't have the balls to stand up for themselves? Bugger that! I won't make that mistake again.

The power of unions and the power of the people IS the people and year after year I just see more ignorant, jaded employees that are more than willing to bend over and take it in the ass as long as long as they can piss around at work, not really care about their jobs and just perform a meaningless 9Am to 5PM...

But that's just my experience... maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the real issue that I have is that the entire system is geared against the working man and most people don't even know it...