RAWR! Stop blaming Sunnis & Shiites! It's Wahabis and their backers! (*Calms down) Let me explain

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs


The best advice I'd give you is to stay on the path you're already on. Keep being the best believer you can be & keep pushing forward. It's a beautiful journey I wish everyone would take.

I always encourage people to start with a Qur'an in their native language, same with prayers. I meet Muslims all the time who've memorized many Suras but don't have the slightest clue what they're saying. That's one reason I think a lot of people contradict the Qur'an in their actions, even when they've memorized a passage that tells them how they should act in that situation! So I'd tell you to start in English, then slowly learn a new phrase or Sura as you go. Once you've learned something new, incorporate it when you can. Our Lord is forgiving & merciful, and I'm convinced He cares more about our efforts than the end result.

The Qur'an is actually very rhythmic & has a lot of internal rhyming. Some parts literally rhyme & sound like spoken word poetry or a rap verse without a beat. But a lot of the problems come w/the way many people recite it (I mean orators). Depending on the style, they may add a lot syllables when they say it. And that makes it hard for a listener to memorize a passage when they hear it that way. So I'd recommend going to youtube & trying to find any recital where they don't embellish it, and simply say it as written. It can help with memorizing new passages.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I've been trying to find the Arabic scripture for Salat phonetically spelled out in English...

Eg Salam Alaikum...



But it's very difficult to find.


Thanks for the insight & kind words.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I've been trying to find the Arabic scripture for Salat phonetically spelled out in English...

Eg Salam Alaikum...



But it's very difficult to find.


Thanks for the insight & kind words.

No problem, man. I wish I could help with that. I had a book that showed many of the different ways different denominations pray, but I gave it away a few years ago. If I can find out which book it is, I'll gladly let you know. It went into different optional prayers, as well.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Great thread! The Wahhabis seem more like a death cult than a form of Islam. They are used as a globalists proxy army by the west via the Saudis. The media has a vested interest though in not explaining the different sects or what whhabist are and where they come from/get support, to the public because it would shed light on what we are really doing there....

originally posted by: pyramid head
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Great thread! The Wahhabis seem more like a death cult than a form of Islam. They are used as a globalists proxy army by the west via the Saudis. The media has a vested interest though in not explaining the different sects or what whhabist are and where they come from/get support, to the public because it would shed light on what we are really doing there....

I agree. They label it "Radical Islam" or "Islamic Extremism" because it places all Muslims as suspects. And as long as entire populations think Muslims in general may be "extreme", they can consider us all as targets. But if they say "Wahabi extremism", it's pretty easy to narrow down who is causing the problems.

One thing I will say though is Wahabis have a charisma that can seduce the young, ignorant or disillusioned. I mainly see it as a fault of societies in general and many of our elders who speak religiously but don't follow through on it. For example, take a poor Muslim in a poor country with a corrupt govt. The youth is too poor to meet his cultural requirements for marriage, has no real employment options, and has no outlets for his frustrations (like clubs, music, local sports teams, etc). He sees the elders committing adultery or making shady deals, while he lives a hand to mouth existence. Constant political scandals are shown on tv, while he sees local "religious" leaders doing immoral things behind closed doors.

Then he's approached by someone who tells him his problems are because his society has corrupted the "true" Islam. He's told the hypocrisy is because no one actually believes the right path anymore, and they list the things I've already mentioned. Then they offer the youth a chance to be a part of something different, where looks, vanity, wealth, etc don't matter. Usually, the violent side isn't even the part that lures people; it's the "purity" from worldly excesses & the trappings of a modern life of poverty. By the time they hear of the violence, they've already been brainwashed by the "no one but you can fight off the corrupted system" crap. I think that's why the new recruits who know nothing of scripture still see every other Muslim as a possible target, too.

After reading a few posts, can a sunni become a shiite, or vice versa? Like a catholic becomes a protestant?

Have you thought of phrasing this into christian group analogies? Like shiites are like catholics following the successor Jesus chose, while sunnies are like protestants following the leaders they choose? As most americans have a christian background it might make it easier to explain the differences.

originally posted by: stormson
After reading a few posts, can a sunni become a shiite, or vice versa? Like a catholic becomes a protestant?

Have you thought of phrasing this into christian group analogies? Like shiites are like catholics following the successor Jesus chose, while sunnies are like protestants following the leaders they choose? As most americans have a christian background it might make it easier to explain the differences.

Hmmm, never thought about it like that. Lemme try to respond as best I can.

can a sunni become a shiite, or vice versa?

Oh definitely. They each follow the Qur'an and follow the basics of Islam, like praying, fasting, giving to charity, etc. And the vast majority of Muslims aren't passionate about the subtleties of their denomination or school of thought. So it would be as easy as interpreting events or scriptures differently. Islam is a personal journey so we can go as far down either road as we want.

Short answer: Yes & it happens all the time. My Dad was mostly Sunni, is drifting Salafi, but doesn't stress the differences. It's his personal journey lol

Like shiites are like catholics following the successor Jesus chose, while sunnies are like protestants following the leaders they choose?

Short answer: Yes, though it's mainly the leaders and powerbrokers who keep the separation in tact.

Most Muslims don't care enough about the history for those comparisons to be valid. Most Muslims will eat with, pray with, live with, and marry people from different denominations without a second thought (though they may differ on how they do certain things). At any major Eid celebration, for example, you'll see Sunnis, Shiites, Salafis, Wahabis, non-practicing Muslims, Muslims from many different cultures with many different clothing styles, etc. And we all pray & celebrate together. There are many "Shiite mosques" or "Sunni mosques", but this is mostly because of the community leaders themselves. And even then, most will still accept anyone who wants to pray there. Our religion is about our submission to God himself. The other stuff is secondary or irrelevant, depending on who you ask. (though I'd imagine this would be very different in a war zone or extremist-held area)

Hope that helps.

Great and amazing posts by charlie speirs .

As a shia muslim who lives among sunni muslims in a shia majority Iran , i have to clear sth out .

This is not a sunni-shia conflict !! ISIS , Al-qaeda , taliban , LeJ , boko haram , ..... Are all wahhabis . We (sunni muslims and shia muslims) don't even consider them as muslims as they're a cult created by a terrorist named abdul-wahhab .

In pakistan , just a couple of months ago , 150 school sunni kids were killed by the pakistani taliban . in the same pakistan , thousands of thousand shia muslims are killed by a group called LeJ .

In Iraq and Syria , Shia muslims are beheaded and their hearts are taken out . in yemen , Saudia is attacking innocent Shia muslims and have killed 3000 of them till now .

This is not islam guys , accept this from a muslim . Islam does not promote violence but peace . Mohammad (pbuh) and our previous prophet jesus christ (pbuh) have promoted peace and love throughout their blessed lives .

lets get our act together people

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Though I agree with you wahabis are sunnis. So to say there not is just wrong. Alot of problems are involved with SaudI Arabia and there allowance of wahabis to go terrorize other countries. But to the house of saud better them do that than overthrow them.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Christians Threatened By ISIS In Lebanon Turn To Hezbollah For Help

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Christians Threatened By ISIS In Lebanon Turn To Hezbollah For Help

Does it shock anyone some Lebanese christians support Hezbollah against Israel?? But I'll say Christian political leaders do not they see Hezbollah as trying to drag them into their war with the Jews.
www.algemeiner.com...

a reply to: dragonridr

The Christians have no ambition and no interest to go after Israel.
It's more like - despite the wahhabist nature of this thread - a return to the basic Shiites/Sunnis antagonism.
The Christians are attacked by the some Sunnis, they favour the Shiites in return (Hezbollah / Iran).
As shown in the video, and despite previous attack against them from the Shiites, the Christians tend to have less problems with the Shiites than the Sunnis in the region.

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: dragonridr

The Christians have no ambition and no interest to go after Israel.
It's more like - despite the wahhabist nature of this thread - a return to the basic Shiites/Sunnis antagonism.
The Christians are attacked by the some Sunnis, they favour the Shiites in return (Hezbollah / Iran).
As shown in the video, and despite previous attack against them from the Shiites, the Christians tend to have less problems with the Shiites than the Sunnis in the region.

True bottom line is thus is still a war over beliefs and it is easy for what we term as a moderate Muslim to become radical. It's the younger generation they are fighting the older generation For power and influence. The west has always been a target I'd you believe one must live like the Mohammad to be truly muslim.

The leading Saudi commentator, Jamal Khashoggi, recently warned of ISIS' Saudi supporters who "watch from the shadows."

There are angry youths with a skewed mentality and understanding of life and sharia, and they are canceling a heritage of centuries and the supposed gains of a modernization that hasn't been completed. They turned into rebels, emirs and a caliph invading a vast area of our land. They are hijacking our children's minds and canceling borders. They reject all rules and legislations, throwing it [a]way ... for their vision of politics, governance, life, society and economy. [For] the citizens of the self-declared "commander of the faithful," or Caliph, you have no other choice ... They don't care if you stand out among your people and if you are an educated man, or a lecturer, or a tribe leader, or a religious leader, or an active politician or even a judge ... You must obey the commander of the faithful and pledge the oath of allegiance to him. When their policies are questioned, Abu Obedia al-Jazrawi yells, saying: "Shut up. Our reference is the book and the Sunnah and that's it."

a reply to: dragonridr

There's an even easier way to put it. A lot of the youths become disillusioned with their governments, denominations, & the rules of their elders because they see the corruption & contradictions.

Even things like marriage can become major areas of contention. The rules for marriage are very simple in the Qur'an. But each denomination, local govt, clan, and family can add so many different restrictions that poor youths may never be able to get married. And even though charity is a requirement for Muslims, that doesn't mean the charitable contributions will actually go to the poor (like America's massive charities which don't work to end poverty in American ghettos).

So eventually some youth get disillusioned by the double standards & outright lies, not to mention the religious hypocrisy. And the Wahabis sales pitch usually isn't about violence or atrocities. It usually starts with the idea that your life sucks because of the corruption of those around you. You can probably guess how that message can get converted into the violent version though. You can probably also see why the poor, disenfranchised, uneducated, and disillusioned people would fall for that initial sales pitch.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Christians Threatened By ISIS In Lebanon Turn To Hezbollah For Help

Does it shock anyone some Lebanese christians support Hezbollah against Israel?? But I'll say Christian political leaders do not they see Hezbollah as trying to drag them into their war with the Jews.
www.algemeiner.com...

Sorry for the late response. Hadn't been on ATS for a few days.

And nope, it doesn't surprise me at all. I've got an Arab Christian friend who feels the same way. He's originally from Iraq & says Saddam treated the 2 million or so Christians well. Even gave grants so a family member could start a church (an elder). After the 2003 war, his family moved between Syria & Lebanon (fled Lebanon when Israel attacked).

His family has a loathing hatred for Israel. He could trace his family back to some of the earliest Christian settlements in Iraq & Syria, but most of their property was ruined in the 2003 war & the Lebanese war (I think in 2004 or 2005). And they all sympathized with the Palestinian Christians who make up about 10% of Palestinians. Most of them went into exile after Israel declared independence though. Anyway, Hezbollah fought for everyone in Lebanon, even though Lebanon is governed by Christians, Muslims, and Druze. And since the US, the Saudis, and Israel have been the main antagonists & have forced millions of Arab Christians into exile from their military interventions, you can probably understand his feelings.

Also, there's an organization called "Kairos Palestine" which you should probably check out (here and here). It has a document from Palestinian Christian leaders & communities about the Israeli occupation. It's pretty eye opening & should give you more insight on the situation.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: dragonridr

There's an even easier way to put it. A lot of the youths become disillusioned with their governments, denominations, & the rules of their elders because they see the corruption & contradictions.

Even things like marriage can become major areas of contention. The rules for marriage are very simple in the Qur'an. But each denomination, local govt, clan, and family can add so many different restrictions that poor youths may never be able to get married. And even though charity is a requirement for Muslims, that doesn't mean the charitable contributions will actually go to the poor (like America's massive charities which don't work to end poverty in American ghettos).

So eventually some youth get disillusioned by the double standards & outright lies, not to mention the religious hypocrisy. And the Wahabis sales pitch usually isn't about violence or atrocities. It usually starts with the idea that your life sucks because of the corruption of those around you. You can probably guess how that message can get converted into the violent version though. You can probably also see why the poor, disenfranchised, uneducated, and disillusioned people would fall for that initial sales pitch.

Exactly and we our seeing the repression in the form of groups such as Isis. Just read an article where Isis is now threatening to liberate chechnya. I blame the middle east rulers they had to ones to handle this oppression many chose this path including saudi arabia. Or give up there grip on society and let people live their lives didnt choose this one except maybe Turkey. People like to claim its the west meddling that causes this though it didnt help and often times can make it worse it isnt the cause. The west has been trying to manipulate a system that they quite frankly never understood. It has always been about religion the old guard in the middle east dont want to give up the power their religion affords them.

a reply to: dragonridr

I kind of agree but I think it's more about standard of living, cost of living, and unfulfilled dreams than religion. The demographics of the masses who are attracted to Wahabi groups in the Middle East share many similarities with the demographics that join street gangs & resistance movements. It's usually young people with nothing to lose, poor people with nothing to lose, and people who are realizing they've been lied to all their lives. (Plus those looking for revenge for their losses during the War on Terror.)

It's easy to manipulate desperate people. And the most successful lies are usually surrounded by truths. I'd even say it's the same in most countries with voluntary military enlistment. The people most likely to volunteer are going to be the poor who are promised a better path; the young who don't know much about the way the world works; and those who are motivated to defend their flag, borders, community, book/constitution, etc. There will always be some who join military or paramilitary groups out of a desire to kill, but usually that's just a minority of members.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Sweden has been on the frontline of EU countries, in the last months, after recognizing and re-initiating bilateral relations with the Palestinian authority.

Sweden just got hostages in Syria released with the help of Palestinian and Jordanian authorities :
Swedish hostages freed in Syria

On the other hand, Sweden is known for its quality of live and its social system but even there, there are inequalities. Desperate people can turn themselves into Jihadist and join the war :
Syria: ‘most dangerous’ Isis leaders Scandinavian

Not to mention the Danish/Palestinian guy who did the shooting spree in Copenhagen.
The problem is just not applicable only to the population of the middle-east, unfortunately.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Very true. I honestly don't know how people can stop their ideas or ideology. Killing the members only emboldens the survivors, & demonizing them only reinforces their belief system. I'd think cutting off their funding & promotional materials would work, as it would stop more people from finding out about them. But in countries with freedom of speech and non-censored access to the internet, blocking their message seems impossible.

Teaching people the truth about Islam & global politics is the best answer I've come up with. Then having faith that the person will choose the path of positivity instead of the path of negativity. (Hope this response doesn't seem like I'm ignoring your post. Your part about Scandinavian members made me think of this response.)