Scientific Evidence That The Universe Was Fine Tuned !

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
You're set in your ways regarding our species. I understand where you're coming from. But you're making out as if our species ISN'T special and you're making out as if I'm saying other species AREN'T special.

Even though, as previously mentioned, special Isn't my word of choice but...

Special:
better, greater, or otherwise different from what is usual.

So on that note, is there any species like us on earth? Who hold as much power (however evil it may seem)? How do we not define as special?

Is there any species on earth that is exactly like any other species on earth? No. Everything humans do, you can find examples of animals in the animal kingdom also doing it.

The entire globe has species with very special qualities. I don't understand what you're trying to get at?

The idea is that if everyone is special then no one is special.

Are you trying to chip away at human beings because you think we think too highly of ourselves? Or are you trying to, ina round about way, suggest our planet is so small that our accomplishments are only "important" to us? If so, you're probably right.. but then again, we know little of what we really mean outside of our planet so you have nothing to base that on.

Actually I'm suggesting both of those things.

I can't remember the last time any other earthly species did what humans have achieved in the last 150 years. Other species have achieved other things which humans can't do. That makes THEM "special" But taking away our achievements doesn't help other species look better it's just a knock to your own.

I don't understand why you're so sought out on chipping away at everything human's have achieved. I don't remember saying our accomplishments mean any other species is LESS special.

And your talk about everything being special therefore nothing is special. That really doesn't make sense. All that is a play on words. Looking at the abilities of like you said, a spider. That's completely special and unique to spiders. Just like our creations are unique to humans.

Your argument regarding our universal status is fair enough. We might not be special - There might be others just like us who can so what we can do and more. But again, we have nothing to base that on however plausible it may seem.

originally posted by: okachobi
The problem with that train of thought is that you happen to exist in a universe. That universe you exist in is one of infinite possible universes- you just happen to be in one of them that favors life. It wasn't tuned that way. You are lucky because you are the product of a universe that had all the prefect values. For those who didn't make it into this universe, it probably seems crazy- and there are probably unfathomable numbers of lifeforms that existed in a universe that didn't make it this far. Its crazy, but you just happen to be one of those who got into the perfect universe. I'm guessing that you don't know anyone who didn't fall into this universe...thats kind of inherent to existing here.

What are the chances? Well, the chances are 100% since you are here. And if you were in another universe, you'd be looking at the constants and wondering why they weren't perfect and why you have it so bad. But when you are lucky enough to exist in this universe and have no knowledge of no other universe, obviously you question how it could be so perfect. Its not perfect...there are infinite failures. You are 1 life form among infinite numbers and you have no knowledge of that so you think you were select in some way by magic hands. Truth is, you were just the product of this universe, the others were not.

Its not magic, its just statistics that you can't comprehend when you are a product of them. Just be thankful that you won the lottery.

I tend to agree, but the fact that sentient life exists on earth, also tends to suggest a Universe capable of, throwing up an infinite number of possibilities, if that's the case then their will also be a limitless amount of Universes.

The reason being for the above, is that their are too many lucky chances, one being without the Moon having the right mass, and orbiting at the right distance, life wouldn't be possible, if the Earths orbit around the sun was outside the Goldilocks' zone , it would mean no life on earth . If the Other planets were in different orbits life wouldn't be possible, and so on and so on. The list could be immense, and with just one factor removed life would not be possible . Four possibilities remain,either It is a (1) a "construct". Or (2) their have been an" infinite number of possibilities "and we are one of the ones that took. Or (3) both , if their were an infinite number of probabilities, , the (4) is that it only appears to be real, and is all virtual.

a reply to: anonentity

The reason being for the above, is that their are too many lucky chances, one being without the Moon having the right mass, and orbiting at the right distance, life wouldn't be possible, if the Earths orbit around the sun was outside the Goldilocks' zone , it would mean no life on earth . If the Other planets were in different orbits life wouldn't be possible, and so on and so on. The list could be immense, and with just one factor removed life would not be possible . Four possibilities remain,either It is a (1) a "construct". Or (2) their have been an" infinite number of possibilities "and we are one of the ones that took. Or (3) both , if their were an infinite number of probabilities, , the (4) is that it only appears to be real, and is all virtual.

On the contrary, there are no 'lucky chances'. There is just what is. The 'chance' that the universe would be exactly like it is is 100% - that is existential fact.

IF things were different you would not be here to notice that things are different. It is BECAUSE the universe is the way it is that you have the ability to observe the universe and determine what it is like.

You are arguing the classical 'poker hand' fallacy. Before the cards are dealt the odds are 2,598,960 to 1 that you will get some particular set of 5 cards. After the cards are dealt the odds are 100% that you will end up with the hand you are dealt.

You exist because the universe is how it is; the universe does not exist to make you possible.

a reply to: MrConspiracy

It is an expression that basically says that everyone is uniquely special, but nothing is any more special than anything else. Humans are JUST as special as any other organism on this planet.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Actually that isn't true our development of complex technology does separate us from the other species.

It's funny a person randomly told me the other day, I guy who doesn't know what I personally believe, that computers and cell phones are what separate us from the monkeys.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Actually that isn't true our development of complex technology does separate us from the other species.

It is only an artificial separation that we created. We've yet to prove a point to the universe so all that complex technology could just boil down to being a huge distraction.

originally posted by: anonentity
Four possibilities remain,either It is a (1) a "construct". Or (2) their have been an" infinite number of possibilities "and we are one of the ones that took. Or (3) both , if their were an infinite number of probabilities, , the (4) is that it only appears to be real, and is all virtual.

Or 5: There is not an infinite number of possibilities, but there is an incredibly huge amount, so even low odds become inevitable.

Also I feel there's a good chance we could find life in our own solar system outside of the goldilocks zone. I'm hoping we do, because I'm tired of people acting like there's only one way life can emerge or that our type of life is the only type possible. Right now we're still taking baby steps, but we'll find it if it's there.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Actually that isn't true our development of complex technology does separate us from the other species.

It's funny a person randomly told me the other day, I guy who doesn't know what I personally believe, that computers and cell phones are what separate us from the monkeys.

It may separate us intellectually, but it doesn't make us "better" or more "special" than any other life on earth. To me, all life is equal. Life is life. Human's survived the last glacial period, while the other hominid species went extinct. Intelligence is our primary survival trait. We may be smarter than the other animals on the earth, but we have our weaknesses as a species as well as we are very fragile.

originally posted by: anonentity

originally posted by: okachobi
The problem with that train of thought is that you happen to exist in a universe. That universe you exist in is one of infinite possible universes- you just happen to be in one of them that favors life. It wasn't tuned that way. You are lucky because you are the product of a universe that had all the prefect values. For those who didn't make it into this universe, it probably seems crazy- and there are probably unfathomable numbers of lifeforms that existed in a universe that didn't make it this far. Its crazy, but you just happen to be one of those who got into the perfect universe. I'm guessing that you don't know anyone who didn't fall into this universe...thats kind of inherent to existing here.

What are the chances? Well, the chances are 100% since you are here. And if you were in another universe, you'd be looking at the constants and wondering why they weren't perfect and why you have it so bad. But when you are lucky enough to exist in this universe and have no knowledge of no other universe, obviously you question how it could be so perfect. Its not perfect...there are infinite failures. You are 1 life form among infinite numbers and you have no knowledge of that so you think you were select in some way by magic hands. Truth is, you were just the product of this universe, the others were not.

Its not magic, its just statistics that you can't comprehend when you are a product of them. Just be thankful that you won the lottery.

I tend to agree, but the fact that sentient life exists on earth, also tends to suggest a Universe capable of, throwing up an infinite number of possibilities, if that's the case then their will also be a limitless amount of Universes.

The reason being for the above, is that their are too many lucky chances, one being without the Moon having the right mass, and orbiting at the right distance, life wouldn't be possible, if the Earths orbit around the sun was outside the Goldilocks' zone , it would mean no life on earth . If the Other planets were in different orbits life wouldn't be possible, and so on and so on. The list could be immense, and with just one factor removed life would not be possible . Four possibilities remain,either It is a (1) a "construct". Or (2) their have been an" infinite number of possibilities "and we are one of the ones that took. Or (3) both , if their were an infinite number of probabilities, , the (4) is that it only appears to be real, and is all virtual.

Your assuming earth has some inate significance. The present calculation on earth like planets is like 1 in 20 stars have rocky planets in the Goldie locks zone. Considering there 400 BILLION galaxies each with about 400 BILLION stars. Earth probubly isn't speacial or rare. Past that, life formed on earth almost the second earth could support it. So that means most likely life isn't speacial either.



It's a math thing. With 400 billion times 400 billion chances. A lot can happen.


Intelligence might be special. It took a few billion years to form a really complex intelligence.



The more we look at the universe the less speacial we are.


Life on earth formed to fit the earth. If the moon was missing we would just be a different form of life. Maybe short stumpy dwarves do deal with the extreme wind or living underground.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Actually that isn't true our development of complex technology does separate us from the other species.

It's funny a person randomly told me the other day, I guy who doesn't know what I personally believe, that computers and cell phones are what separate us from the monkeys.

It may separate us intellectually, but it doesn't make us "better" or more "special" than any other life on earth. To me, all life is equal. Life is life. Human's survived the last glacial period, while the other hominid species went extinct. Intelligence is our primary survival trait. We may be smarter than the other animals on the earth, but we have our weaknesses as a species as well as we are very fragile.

It's not about being more special. Special is defined as something that is different from what is usual. This can mean greater or better. But in this case humanity is special Just as other species are.

Our achievements are still as special but it in no way implies other species aren't.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: MrConspiracy

It is an expression that basically says that everyone is uniquely special, but nothing is any more special than anything else. Humans are JUST as special as any other organism on this planet.

So humans ARE special? Glad we got there!

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Is there any species on earth that is exactly like any other species on earth? No. Everything humans do, you can find examples of animals in the animal kingdom also doing it.

But only we do it all. That's kind of special.

originally posted by: Barcs
It may separate us intellectually, but it doesn't make us "better" or more "special" than any other life on earth. To me, all life is equal. Life is life. Human's survived the last glacial period, while the other hominid species went extinct. Intelligence is our primary survival trait. We may be smarter than the other animals on the earth, but we have our weaknesses as a species as well as we are very fragile.

This reminds me of great quote from Sir Arthur Clarke:

It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value.

By following news on TV and with cold war at the time of this quote... not sure if our intelligence might be our biggest downfall.

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
So humans ARE special? Glad we got there!

In some sense, yes, we are special. I remember hearing that we are only life form that kills other life forms (and itself) for pleasure, recreation and fun... Not sure we should feel proud and special about this... but sure... its there...


As for OP and topic, couple of question:

* What 'fine tuning' means. Fine tuned for what or whom? If is for us humans... how to you explain fine tuning if rest of space is deadly for us?!

* Is it possible that our number make sense because we develop them that way - so that they make sense to us. What would happen to our numerical system if we had 8 or 12 fingers? Or what if alien race has 8 or 12 fingers? How beneficial (or not) that might be??

* If someone fine tuned galaxy... where that someone comes from? Is there anything like proof that something was fine tuned??