Scientific Evidence That The Universe Was Fine Tuned !

a reply to: GetHyped

Fine tuned for what, exactly? Life?

Yes it is "fine-tuned" for life in the sense that many of the laws of physics are extremely sensitive and if you were to change them slightly it would prevent life from existing. The probability that our universe is the only universe and it also just happens to capable of supporting sentient life forms such as ourself is so minutely small that it's practically impossible. The explanation for this could be that there are an infinite number of universes with differing laws of physics or it could be something else, but there is no denying that the universe we live in has highly fine-tuned laws of physics.

Your argument is like saying a puddle's hole is "fine tuned" for the puddle. No, not really. If the hole was a different shape we'd have a different puddle, or no puddle at all.

Yes but in most cases when you adjust the laws of physics you end up with no puddle rather than a different puddle. There are some laws of physics which are so sensitive it's mind boggling. It is extremely obvious that our universe is not just some random pick out of any possible universe. But that doesn't mean it was designed, it just means that sentient life will only exist in universes capable of producing sentient life, and out of all the possible universes, there is a very small fraction which are capable of supporting sentient life.

And yes, my links very much debunk this fallacious notion in the OP that the universe "had help" fine tuning it for life. This is an old argument put forth by the dogmatic to rationalize the universe's utter indifference to us with their religious fuzzy feeling of being special.

I did not watch all of the OP's video so maybe it mentioned a creator at the end but what I did watch was technically correct. The OP himself did not say the universe had any help, he simply pointed out that it seems to be fine-tuned and he actually asked "why" in capital letters. You made assumptions about what the OP was saying. I never mentioned anything about God or religion either. I am agnostic and strongly oppose most organized religions.

a reply to: ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
Indeed. The man certainly had a gift...

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

So yes, the odds may well be "a zillion to one", but regardless of what the odds are, you're in that one in a zillion universe.

Exactly, and since it is a "zillion to one" it's obviously going to have properties that appear to be highly fine-tuned. There is nothing scientifically incorrect about stating that the universe is fine-tuned for sentient life (as long as you're not stating it was manually tuned by some godly intelligence).

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Again, if there wasn't a hole to begin with then the puddle wouldn't be asking the question. OF COURSE this universe is capable of supporting life, otherwise we wouldn't be here! The puddle's hole is not "fine tuned", the puddle is fine tuned to the hole.

The OP himself did not say the universe had any help, he simply pointed out that it seems to be fine-tuned and he actually asked "why" in capital letters.

This is an example of the "just asking questions" fallacy:

rationalwiki.org...

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

So yes, the odds may well be "a zillion to one", but regardless of what the odds are, you're in that one in a zillion universe.

Exactly, and since it is a "zillion to one" it's obviously going to have properties that appear to be highly fine-tuned. There is nothing scientifically incorrect about stating that the universe is fine-tuned for sentient life (as long as you're not stating it was manually tuned by some godly intelligence).

I wouldn't use the words "fine-tuned"; " coincidentally lucky", maybe, but other than that I agree 100%.

It's rather clear, though, from looking at their posting history, that the OP is pushing the 'godly intelligence' angle, which, in my opinion, is nonsense.

a reply to: GetHyped

OF COURSE this universe is capable of supporting life, otherwise we wouldn't be here!

I don't know why you're repeating things that we both agree upon.

The puddle's hole is not "fine tuned", the puddle is fine tuned to the hole.

This puddle hole analogy isn't the best comparison to sentient life imo. You wouldn't have puddles or water if some laws of physics were changed slightly. You wouldn't have galaxies or planets for that matter. In most cases when you change the laws of physics you get something that couldn't support any type of sentient life at all because the universe doesn't produce systems complex enough to allow life to evolve. I tend to think of the universe as a mathematical object, a set of mathematical rules that produce the universe we live in, and the multiverse is an infinite collection of every possible mathematical object that is Turing complete.

A better analogy is this: you have an infinite number of puddles and a special type of water that can only exist in a very special type of hole. The chances of picking any random hole and having it be compatible with your special water is extremely unlikely. You'll need to search long and hard for a hole compatible with your water. Of course the universe isn't fine-tuned for human life, but our universe is fine-tuned to support complicated sentient life via a dynamical galactic formation system which would fall apart if the way it worked was changed even slightly. If you study cosmology you will be continually driven to this understanding.

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Is this supposed to be some sort of hokey religious rhetoric, or a threat?

No, it's more of a warning like a sign on the road that advises a driver of a danger ahead, a driver can choose to ignore it
and risk his life and those in the vehicle with him(his children). Or pay attention and react accordingly to insure both his families safety and himself.

Then again some people think they can take a sharp corner that is advises a 25 mph speed going 65 mph in the pouring rain, because, well they think they are a capable driver, they know better.

How is that going to end ?

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Maybe this video creates more questions than it answers, but if after you view it and think about it, you still dogmatically hold to the opinion that our universe had no help with it's fine tuning to support life. Maybe you should ask of yourself a question that requires you to be totally and brutally intellectually honest with yourself.

WHY ?

VIDEO
The Fine Tuning Of The Universe

well, it looks as though this stuff...

www.petersaysstuff.com...
www.outerplaces.com...
rationalwiki.org...

...suggests more than a fair bit of intellectual dishonesty went into that video you shared.

so perhaps you should ask yourself.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

Is this supposed to be some sort of hokey religious rhetoric, or a threat?

No, it's more of a warning like a sign on the road that advises a driver of a danger ahead, a driver can choose to ignore it
and risk his life and those in the vehicle with him(his children). Or pay attention and react accordingly to insure both his families safety and himself.

Then again some people think they can take a sharp corner that is advises a 25 mph speed going 65 mph in the pouring rain, because, well they think they are a capable driver, they know better.

How is that going to end ?

why then do you not hang garlic above your door to ward off vampires? better safe than sorry right?

a reply to: TzarChasm

...suggests more than a fair bit of intellectual dishonesty went into that video you shared.

So all those quoted scientists in the video can be ignored then ?

Oh, those quotes don't fit with my world view so I won't even think about them, seems to be a common posting reaction with some here.

Again we are all bias, and the reactions to the video clearly exposes that.
Either for, or against, or just maybe.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

So all those quoted scientists in the video can be ignored then ?

perhaps they are looking at it the wrong way.

is the universe fine tuned for our existence? or are we fine tuned for the universe?

evolution baby.

What interests me is how one person can look at some evidence and say God and another won't or can't. Why? How?

Since my view is hte latter I can say a few things. First, I don't KNOW there's no God. I have a belief. Second, my belief is only simpler if it's tied to evidence. If I climb a tree and reach the first branch, did God do it or me? Given the evidence, I did it, right? If an apple falls from the tree, did God do it or natural laws? I think natural laws are the best explanation, but one could concoct an explanation involving the hand of God. If humanity is created some time in the past and the details surrounding it are unclear, did God do it or natural laws? See, this is where people get confused. We know the natural laws which cause the apple to fall from the tree much more clearly than we do the ones which must have created us.

originally posted by: jonnywhite
What interests me is how one person can look at some evidence and say God and another won't or can't. Why? How?

Because it isn't proper evidence. The people who look at fine tuning arguments as valid reasoning are already predisposed to believe in god, so they look for rationalizations in nature to explain this. Except this isn't real evidence. It is just a bunch of words that sounds reasonable. Yet there are many reasons why that reasoning could also be invalid.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: TzarChasm

...suggests more than a fair bit of intellectual dishonesty went into that video you shared.

So all those quoted scientists in the video can be ignored then ?

Using a quotation is just an appeal to authority fallacy. You need actual evidence to support your claim, not opinions of smart people.

Oh, those quotes don't fit with my world view so I won't even think about them, seems to be a common posting reaction with some here.

Quotes aren't evidence.

Again we are all bias, and the reactions to the video clearly exposes that.
Either for, or against, or just maybe.

Scientists can hold faulty beliefs too. They ARE human after all.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

it amuses me that fred hoyle and stephen hawking are both in there, even though hoyle rejected the big bang theory and hawking is an atheist.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Krazysh0t

it amuses me that fred hoyle and stephen hawking are both in there, even though hoyle rejected the big bang theory and hawking is an atheist.

Got to love the quote mine. Unfortunately for Creationists, they can't apply the same tactic they use to interpret the bible 1 million plus 1 ways to dissect science.

I can't believe the difference this has made to my garden, since I fine tuned my compost heap. wow! truly bizarre. glad I picked up on that one! thanks.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: Entreri06

Also life evolved to fit the universe/earth. So of course it looks like life was made to fit it. Because life evolved to fit it!!

OH REALLY !

That's a very convenient line of thought, but is it intellectually honest ?

Based on the odds that happen at every level from cosmology to abiogenesis to the theory that every single mammal unique group on the planet evolved into "two" different species male and female in absolutely perfect synchronism, so that they all split with perfect timing going from asexual to sexual to propagate themselves.

I have no idea how people fall for such craziness.....

Indeed

I really think YOU and creation believers should learn how probability or should it be improbability works here is a little educational video for you.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Here's a good one from Professor of Mathematics, John Lennox. He believes in the Fine Tuning of the Universe also. See his video: vimeo.com...