What does it mean to cease to exist?

Some people say when you die that you cease to exist. What exactly does that mean and how is this known? I was looking through the scientific literature and I haven't found any evidence that shows when someone dies they cease to exist. In fact, when you look at science as it relates to resuscitation when someone dies isn't fully understood and how long someones conscious can exist after they're declared dead isn't understood.

There's very brilliant scientist looking into things like near death experiences, ESP, OBE's, psychic ability, reincarnation and communication with those who are supposed to "cease to exist" when they die.

Now, these scientist are well respected in their fields and have done some distinguished work but as soon as they ask questions and look into things where there's zero explanation in the context of materialism they're called kook, kranks and there's attempts to marginalize them and any work that they do in these areas as pseudoscience.

When Plato talked about people being in prison, I can't think of anything more closed minded then trying to regulate everything that goes against what you BELIEVE as pseudoscience.

So how do we know a person "ceases to exist" when they die? Einstein even said our 3 dimensional evolution that we experience as now is just an illusion. So if a person dies in what we perceive as "NOW" how do we know that their death is an objective reality of our existence? Einstein said the past, present and future is a persistent illusion and he said this:

Since there exists in this four dimensional structure [space-time] no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.

In the evolution of a 3 dimensional existence you die at a particular "now" but as Einstein said this perception isn't an objective reality. So if our perception of death is the cessation of our evolution in a 3 dimensional now, how can you say someone ceases to exist when that now isn't objective reality?

Cease to exist is just that.

There is nothing that continues after death.

Think of it like going to sleep or being put under anesthesia. When not dreaming you know nothing, see nothing, feel nothing, the same under anesthesia.

That is the best I can explain it, nothingness, just nothing.

That is what most atheists believe, that after one dies, there is nothing, no sensation, no awareness, no continuation of knowing or knowledge, just ashes to ashes, dust to dust. That's all there is folks.

Objective reality has no proof of awareness after final death, objective reality has no proof of feeling, knowing after death. The work of those who say there is, actually is not proof of anything other than awareness may remain for a short period of time, but after that, well there is no objective reality proof. And there never will be. The objective reality we see in "life after death" may simply be the neurons in a sort of stasis where they can continue to function without "life support" for a short time or be put in stasis through a severe drop in temperature. There is only faith, there is no objective reality when it comes to final unalterable death.

That is where faith comes in, either you have faith which is not supported by objective reality and continue to exist in some form, or you don't have faith.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You said several things that make no sense. You said:

There is nothing that continues after death.

How do you know this? Point me to the scientific research that says there's nothing that continues after death.

Objective reality has no proof that you cease to exist at death. In fact, Einstein showed us what we perceive as a 3 dimensional "NOW" Isn't objective reality. So there's not a shred of evidence that the person you percieve as dying in a 3 dimensional "NOW" ceases to exist.

Think of it like going to sleep or being put under anesthesia. When not dreaming you know nothing, see nothing, feel nothing, the same under anesthesia.

Wrong again. They're people who recall dreams under anesthesia and sometimes the dreams are more vivid than usual.

(Reuters Health) - The dreaming reported by many patients during surgery, in most cases, does not mean the anesthesia is wearing off, Australian researchers report in the journal Anesthesiology.

Few studies have looked at the link between dreaming and the depth of anesthesia, and studies that have investigated the topic have yielded inconclusive results, lead author Dr. Kate Leslie, from Royal Melbourne Hospital, and colleagues report.

They point out that dreams experienced under anesthesia can be distressing to patients, and some may think their dream was actual awareness resulting from inadequate anesthesia.

In their study, the researchers assessed 300 consecutive healthy patients who were undergoing elective surgery that required general anesthesia. The Bispectral Index, a measure of the anesthetic effect on the brain, was used to gauge the depth of anesthesia during surgery. After the surgery was over, the patients were interviewed about their dreams.

Twenty-two percent of patients reported dreaming. No statistically significant difference in the average Bispectral Index value was noted between the dreamers and patients who didn't dream, the report indicates.

Link

I have seen studies that go as high as 33%.

So again, if anyone claims we cease to exist when we die they have to provide evidence that this is the case or that saying we cease to exist at some point that we perceive as "NOW" has any meaning above and beyond are perception of now.

a reply to: neoholographic

Remember that moment just before you were born?....

That's what it feels like to cease to exist.

It's actually my idea of bliss, pure nothingness...I can't deal with anymore totalitarianism, I feel this is enough for one life.

But then who really knows what waits for us on the other side.

Oh and if you want evidence, I'm afraid there isn't any for either side of the argument. If Einstein couldn't come to a conclusion then the likes of you or me don't really stand much of a chance.

It's really all just a matter of preference.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: grandmakdw

You said several things that make no sense. You said:

There is nothing that continues after death.

How do you know this? Point me to the scientific research that says there's nothing that continues after death.


Objective reality has no proof that you cease to exist at death. In fact, Einstein showed us what we perceive as a 3 dimensional "NOW" Isn't objective reality. So there's not a shred of evidence that the person you percieve as dying in a 3 dimensional "NOW" ceases to exist.

Think of it like going to sleep or being put under anesthesia. When not dreaming you know nothing, see nothing, feel nothing, the same under anesthesia.

Wrong again. They're people who recall dreams under anesthesia and sometimes the dreams are more vivid than usual.

(Reuters Health) - The dreaming reported by many patients during surgery, in most cases, does not mean the anesthesia is wearing off, Australian researchers report in the journal Anesthesiology.

Few studies have looked at the link between dreaming and the depth of anesthesia, and studies that have investigated the topic have yielded inconclusive results, lead author Dr. Kate Leslie, from Royal Melbourne Hospital, and colleagues report.

They point out that dreams experienced under anesthesia can be distressing to patients, and some may think their dream was actual awareness resulting from inadequate anesthesia.

In their study, the researchers assessed 300 consecutive healthy patients who were undergoing elective surgery that required general anesthesia. The Bispectral Index, a measure of the anesthetic effect on the brain, was used to gauge the depth of anesthesia during surgery. After the surgery was over, the patients were interviewed about their dreams.

Twenty-two percent of patients reported dreaming. No statistically significant difference in the average Bispectral Index value was noted between the dreamers and patients who didn't dream, the report indicates.

Link

I have seen studies that go as high as 33%.

So again, if anyone claims we cease to exist when we die they have to provide evidence that this is the case or that saying we cease to exist at some point that we perceive as "NOW" has any meaning above and beyond are perception of now.

There is no objective scientific evidence that anyone continues after death.

There is only conjecture, not proof, there are theories, but they are not proof.

There is no objective proof at all about what happens when one dies and never revives.

There is only faith that one continues to exist, and hope that one continues to exist, but not one shred of objective scientific proof.

And that not one shred of scientific proof, definitive proof, goes both ways, there is none to prove we do continue to exist, and none to probe we do not continue to exist.

It is a mystery of the most profound kind.

If you think there is absolute proof of existence after the final death, you are wrong, there isn't any.

There is only faith and hope that we continue to exist in some form or another, only faith and hope.

double post

a reply to: grandmakdw

What????

You're the one with strong faith.

There's no scientific evidence that anyone ceases to exist when they die. That's just your perception of "NOW" And as Einstein told us, that's just a persistent illusion.

You have strong faith that people cease to exist when they die but there's not a shred of scientific evidence that supports this notion.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: grandmakdw

What????

You're the one with strong faith.

There's no scientific evidence that anyone ceases to exist when they die. That's just your perception of "NOW" And as Einstein told us, that's just a persistent illusion.

You have strong faith that people cease to exist when they die but there's not a shred of scientific evidence that supports this notion.

And I will repeat for the final time

There is not one shred of scientific evidence that supports the notion that people continue to exist after the final death.

Einsteins musings and theory on the subject are just that, musings and theory (theory means best guess in the science world). Nothing is proved by putting forth any theory or idea or musing on what might be.

All that is left if you wish to exist after this life is simply
faith and hope.
There is nothing wrong with faith and hope, I'm not putting that down, but faith and hope is all there really is.
There is nothing today that proves it will happen.

What is there to fear in nothingness?
It is like being afraid of sleep or anesthesia.
There should be nothing at all to fear from nothingness, as it is just that, nothing.

a reply to: neoholographic

To cease to exist entirely is impossible. Say I die after writing this post. My post will still be here, along with my entire past, that to me shows I still exist, I'm just not "here".

I don't think your death can result in just nothingness, how can you experience nothingness? Nothingness is a thing in itself, you cannot have life without death, light without dark, nothing without everything they coincide with each other and are symbiotic, as they need each other to have any context.

If all there was was dark and thats all I ever knew complete darkness. How could I know it was darkness? I have nothing to compare it to. How can I know there is no light if I do not even have a concept of what light is. Its the same with life and death I sometimes think. Its not beggining and end rather they are one, you cannot have a beggining without an end and end without a beggining. So in these terms, no I don't think you can "cease" to exist.

With your talk on einstein though which I have not heard of, he raises the question of "objective" reality, maybe that opens things up to a bigger question, how can you know which realitys are objective as opposed to subjective. If reality is subjective, anything could happen I guess.

I feel I might have read the question wrong though?

a reply to: neoholographic

It's incomprehensible...that's why it's worrying and to be avoided for as long as possible to most. Because we simply cannot comprehend...nothingness or not existing. Even the act of consciously thinking about nothingness is difficult, after all an imaginary pitch black void..is still something, it has a colour, it has characteristics that define it, it's not much i'll grant, but it is something.

Imagine it like this;

What did the world feel like to you, what were you thinking and feeling right before you were..conceived?

See what i mean?

Before we were conceived, was the absolute point of nothingness as far as any of us are concerned..what was it like?

neoholographic:

...when you die...you cease to exist. What exactly does that mean and how is this known? I was looking through the scientific literature and I haven't found any evidence that shows when someone dies they cease to exist.

There are two avenues of meaning to your question, two levels to it that require clarification. The first clarification required is to what you pertain when you say 'we die'?

There is the body: the physical structure, and all our biological modular systems that cease functioning when we die. The heart stops, the lungs no longer inhale and exhale, and the brain dies from the top down. Higher cognitive functioning goes first then the lower levels.

When the body and brain can no longer sustain the mental construct that is 'you', death to both ensues. No science literature is required to validate death as the end to a person's physical existence. We all know that when the body dies, the mental construct of 'personhood' perishes with it. So, your question does not regard the body, but that entity of personhood, and asks if there is post-mortem consciousness? The answer to that (as our knowledge stands at the moment) is no. There is no science literature available because you cannot quantify what no longer exists.

You answer your own question.

I think i look it like this as simple as it can get, everything transforms into something, so life or what ever u are continues its path even after u the human dies.
I cannot say what will our souls becomes after human body dies but il bet it will also transform into something.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You said:

There is not one shred of scientific evidence that supports the notion that people continue to exist after the final death.

First of, this isn't the case. There have been plenty of studies into these areas with many well respected scientist reaching the conclusion that consciousness continues to exist after death. I can put together a long list of published papers, talks and videos from scientist who support and are looking into these things.

Sadly, you can list this evidence on a 20 page thread and people will still make the asinine claim that there's not a shred of evidence.

Secondly, there's not a SHRED OF EVIDENCE that this term, "final death" has any meaning beyond you saying "final death" on this thread. What exactly does that mean? Point me to the scientific paper that shows you cease to exist after what you call "final death."

It's not my job to prove a negative. I'm not the one claiming we cease to exist when we die. Again, most things in the universe don't cease to exist but they change from one form to another.

So, my claim is that we don't cease to exist after death because there's zero evidence that our perception of death is an objective reality.

originally posted by: romilo
I think i look it like this as simple as it can get, everything transforms into something, so life or what ever u are continues its path even after u the human dies.

Yes, people disintegrate and turn into dirt. That is the physical transformation that occurs.

So a transformation does occur,
however, as to the "soul" which is really what is being discussed here,
there is no proof
there is nothing to say that the electrical energy that makes us live does nothing more than turn off like an unplugged appliance.

If transformation does occur, that is simply a matter of faith and hope.

The only transformation science can prove in that the body is either burned and becomes dirt, or disintegrates and becomes dirt.

The rest is left to conjecture and theologians, ie faith and hope.

double post

originally posted by: romilo
I think i look it like this as simple as it can get, everything transforms into something, so life or what ever u are continues its path even after u the human dies.
I cannot say what will our souls becomes after human body dies but il bet it will also transform into something.

Exactly!!

Materialism can't even explain how a person can recall specific memories. How can the material brain tell the material brain which memory it wants the material brain to recall? How does the material brain even know the difference between specific memories and which ones you wish to recall?

The point is, there isn't a shred of evidence that people cease to exist when they die. What does cease to exist even mean if the perception of death at a point we call "now" isn't objective reality?

a reply to: neoholographic

The final death is one which after it occurs a body can no longer be revived or brought back to life.

All the studies you quote are done on revivals, not people who have reached the point of no return, final death.

We know absolutely nothing of what happens when a person can no longer be revived, none of the current research can tell us that.

We only have faith and hope, no objective scientific proof at all.

Sorry. But nothingness is not horrible or to be feared, it is simply nothing.

Actually the one to fear is what if "we" do survive; do we go go heaven/hell; OR are we left incorporeal and unable to communicate; OR is our energy absorbed into the larger consciousness of some being or entity; OR being thrown back into another life which could be worse than any hell.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Science is like faith and hope.. Just another tool to try understanding something.
I have no doubts as of now that soul will become something after human body dies.

a reply to: grandmakdw

Again this makes no sense and nobody fears nothingness that's just you projecting your belief onto others. You think the only way people accept these things is because they fear nothingness. No, it's because people use their brain and study these things and don't have a blind belief that people cease to exist at death.

You said:

The final death is one which after it occurs a body can no longer be revived or brought back to life.

Show me the scientific evidence that says we cease to exist when something called final death occurs. Show me the scientific paper that supports a notion of final death.

Again, these are just blind beliefs. There's not a shred of evidence that supports the notion that people cease to exist. That's just your subjective perception of a 3 dimensional now.

a reply to: grandmakdw

You talk about faith and hope as if they were exclusive to people with spiritual or rather non-scientific beliefs.

Dont you feel you have faith and hope in science? Specifically one theory of science, as many scientists along with historians, archaeologist etc disagree with each other and simply the one which is most popular is regarded as being the most true.

Faith: complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

Do you completely trust science?