Whether Or Not Homosexuality Is A Choice Is Irrelevant

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Because you said the following;

ETA: fatherless children represent:

63% of teen suicides
70% of juveniles in state institutions
71% of high school dropouts
75% of children in chemical abuse centers
80% of rapists
85% of youths in prison
90% of homeless and runaway children

I have seen this first hand, with peoples from all walks of life.

As there are 10,000,000 single mothers in the US and only 111,000 gay parents, the stats you gave would be more inclined to the 10,000,000 single mothers!

You made the statement above not me!

Right, and I have been saying all along, that a fatherless child is the same as a fatherless figure in a gay marriage. I merely presented the stats to emphasise the impact of such. I am comparing the two environments, it is not blaming the 10 million single mothers at all? it is showing what happens as a result of a father not being present (whether dead or ran away or whatever).

Why are you being so trivial, I am sure you knew what I meant.

Well in fact all you managed to do was demonise 10,000,000 single moms as the stats you gave would have more of an effect on the kids from the ten million moms in the US than any Gay Parents kids! What happens if its two gay dads with kids, does that go against what you have been saying in this thread as they would have two "Father Figures"?

I'm not being trivial as you claim, I am just pointing out your hypocrisy!

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Homosexual parenting is an open choice. Single parenting is predominantly circumstantial.

5 Scientific Reasons Gay Parents Are Awesome

1. They choose to have kids

Straight couples all to frequently have "oops" babies. According to the Guttmacher Institute, about half of U.S. pregnancies are unplanned, and about half of those unplanned pregnancies end in birth rather than abortion. Parents of unplanned babies can do a great job, of course, but some are in dire circumstances. Two-thirds of unplanned births in 2006 were paid for by Medicaid or other low-income insurance programs, according to Guttmacher.

Gay couples, in contrast, generally have to plan to have babies, overcoming biological limits to adopt, find surrogates or sperm donors, or use in vitro fertilization methods. After persevering through those challenges, gay parents "tend to be more motivated, more committed than heterosexual parents on average, because they chose to be parents," Abbie Goldberg, a psychologist at Clark University in Massachusetts who researches gay and lesbian parenting, told LiveScience last year.

This is completely irrelevent to my argument, I am discussing the lack of a father or mother figure, not the gay couples ability to raise a child, of course the child will be raised no matter what, I am addressing the psycological impact of not having a daddy or a mommy present. Unless you can contend this point, I have nothing else to say because I'm getting tired of repeating fundamental concepts in psychology. Single-parenting

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Because you said the following;

ETA: fatherless children represent:

63% of teen suicides
70% of juveniles in state institutions
71% of high school dropouts
75% of children in chemical abuse centers
80% of rapists
85% of youths in prison
90% of homeless and runaway children

I have seen this first hand, with peoples from all walks of life.

As there are 10,000,000 single mothers in the US and only 111,000 gay parents, the stats you gave would be more inclined to the 10,000,000 single mothers!

You made the statement above not me!

Right, and I have been saying all along, that a fatherless child is the same as a fatherless figure in a gay marriage. I merely presented the stats to emphasise the impact of such. I am comparing the two environments, it is not blaming the 10 million single mothers at all? it is showing what happens as a result of a father not being present (whether dead or ran away or whatever).

Why are you being so trivial, I am sure you knew what I meant.

Well in fact all you managed to do was demonise 10,000,000 single moms as the stats you gave would have more of an effect on the kids from the ten million moms in the US than any Gay Parents kids! What happens if its two gay dads with kids, does that go against what you have been saying in this thread as they would have two "Father Figures"?

I'm not being trivial as you claim, I am just point out your hypocrisy!

Whose fact is it? Your fact? I didn't demonise anyone, and I've repeated myself many times with you. You have a great skill for sidestepping issues, and blowing hot air.

Well maybe you need to go back in history and see what the qualities attributed to a father figure are, and how that fit's in line with two gay dads. Maybe you should step outside into the real world, and conduct a survey and ask people what defines a father figure, then pop the question, 'right, so now what if that man was gay' and see how opinions change rapidly, because a father figure is not homosexual.

So in theory if a lesbian couple and a gay couple decided to have a child, that would be OK because they would have twice as many mother and father figures as other children?

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Lets put your argument into perspctive. You said that by not having a "Father" figure in the home, that kids would more likly turn to crime than those with two parents. You provided the stats no one else.

Ok- lets go with that for a moment;

* There are 20 MILLION children in the US with just a mom at home.
* There are 6 MILLION Kids with two same sex parents.

According to your figures you gave, 20 Million kids now have the possibility to become involved in crime than any other group. Where is your outrage towards these single moms?

Why are you so worried about Gay Parents when the real issue is the poor 20 million kids with no dad and if "Andy" is correct, that's 20 million more kids going to be gay!

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

I dont think that statement would go down well with children that have grown up with Gay dads.
After all in the past there was the same number of gay people, they just repressed it and marrried poor unsuspecting straight people.
They still had families.
Are kids effected badly if they didnt know their parent was gay, or do they have to be aware for their to be a negative impact?

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Because you said the following;

ETA: fatherless children represent:

63% of teen suicides
70% of juveniles in state institutions
71% of high school dropouts
75% of children in chemical abuse centers
80% of rapists
85% of youths in prison
90% of homeless and runaway children

I have seen this first hand, with peoples from all walks of life.

As there are 10,000,000 single mothers in the US and only 111,000 gay parents, the stats you gave would be more inclined to the 10,000,000 single mothers!

You made the statement above not me!

Right, and I have been saying all along, that a fatherless child is the same as a fatherless figure in a gay marriage. I merely presented the stats to emphasise the impact of such. I am comparing the two environments, it is not blaming the 10 million single mothers at all? it is showing what happens as a result of a father not being present (whether dead or ran away or whatever).

Why are you being so trivial, I am sure you knew what I meant.

Well in fact all you managed to do was demonise 10,000,000 single moms as the stats you gave would have more of an effect on the kids from the ten million moms in the US than any Gay Parents kids! What happens if its two gay dads with kids, does that go against what you have been saying in this thread as they would have two "Father Figures"?

I'm not being trivial as you claim, I am just point out your hypocrisy!

You have a great skill for sidestepping issues, and blowing hot air.

LOL OK Buddy, getting to hot in the kitchen for you now is it?

What have I side stepped? You gave some stats in this thread and now they are being used in a way that merits the reason for the stats in the first place, you don't like it! its ok I get it! your backed into a corner now as you provided evidence that actually went a different way than you expected.

As someone already said to you, your posts are more like "Word Salad" with no substance!

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

I see a lot of hot air, but not from Flammadraco.

The American Pediatric Association says that children of homosexual parents fare as well and sometimes better than children of heterosexual parents.

The American Psychological Association says that the children of homosexual parents are just as likely to flourish as children of heterosexual parents.

The American Psychiatric Association says that the children of homosexual parents are as likely to be healthy and well-adjusted as children of heterosexual parents.

What endorsements do you have? "Westboro" Family Research Council? Don't make me laugh.

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: and14263

Can you answer the question I asked of you earlier in the thread;

Can you explain the 1500 species of animal that have homosexuality in them, is this nature or nurture?

Folk with the same opinion as you seem to ignore these hard questions?

My answer to this is that in certain circumstances our sexuality can bend/change to suit circumstances. Much like when men in all male prisons become attracted to each other. Yet ten years before they were straight. I can imagine that this is a factor in the animal world.

The next factor which springs to mind is awareness or consciousness. We have an innate urge to breed and have sex (back to the abnormal/normal question but let's not go there again) - when humans feel the urge they go for whatever gender they are attracted to. I honestly believe that when you look at which animals show homosexual behaviour they are not conscious enough to know what gender they are trying to fornicate with.

Wiki about gay animals

So the animals have the innate urge, nothing like a psyche/ego to be affected by the environment so they just go for it and chances are in the end they'll hit the opposite sex and make more.

I wasn't avoiding the question

EDIT: This is all personal theory. I've done no research and don't know anything about animal psychology. In fact before my first reply on this thread I googled the animal thing to see how it stacked up as I sort of pre empted this. I'll do a bit of research over the weekend I think.

a reply to: kaylaluv

In all seriousness can you show me some info on this? I'd be interested in methodology etc.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Do you think this is due to them being from higher socio economic backgrounds?

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Lets put your argument into perspctive. You said that by not having a "Father" figure in the home, that kids would more likly turn to crime than those with two parents. You provided the stats no one else.

Ok- lets go with that for a moment;

* There are 20 MILLION children in the US with just a mom at home.
* There are 6 MILLION Kids with two same sex parents.

According to your figures you gave, 20 Million kids now have the possibility to become involved in crime than any other group. Where is your outrage towards these single moms?

Why are you so worried about Gay Parents when the real issue is the poor 20 million kids with no dad and if "Andy" is correct, that's 20 million more kids going to be gay!

Why am I so worried about gay parent... forget that flammadraco, I have now become more worried with your ablility to read and understand information. I have written many words in this thread as to why I am worried about Gay parenting, I t is truly beyond my comprehension as to how you have not come across those words.

The real issue is the mother? the question is why are YOU blaming the mother, I didn't bring the mother's parenting into this. I said fatherless children, and presented stats.

Not bad mothers, and then stats:

Ahhhh the lunacy.


As for the 20 million more kids being gay, I have no idea what you are talking about. It hurts my head just reading your dribble drabble.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

I see a lot of hot air, but not from Flammadraco.

The American Pediatric Association says that children of homosexual parents fare as well and sometimes better than children of heterosexual parents.

The American Psychological Association says that the children of homosexual parents are just as likely to flourish as children of heterosexual parents.

The American Psychiatric Association says that the children of homosexual parents are as likely to be healthy and well-adjusted as children of heterosexual parents.

What endorsements do you have? "Westboro" Family Research Council? Don't make me laugh.

Did they break it down by gay male vs gay female parents? Male couples tend to be of higher socioeconomic status than hetero couples. (Of course it's off topic, but an interesting mental exercise nonetheless.)

originally posted by: flammadraco

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: Prezbo369
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

You can say that 'normal' families have their issues too, but that is part of the human condition, being gay isn't and numerous studies have been conducted into the negatives of single-parenting which I feel is strongly comparable to homosexual parenting, and highly relevant, except homosexual parenting is a choice made that you make from the get-go, and not circumstantial.

Homosexuality isn't limited to humans it's common in many other species. Your description of homosexuality displays your bias on this issue as do your 'feelings' in regards to same sex parenting.

Can you give a reason why same sex parents are detrimental to a child's upbringing that isn't based purely on what has been traditional in the past or your subjective feelings and emotions?

That argument has been brought up time and time again, you can do your own independent research with regards to the impact of male and female parenting figures on say a tiger cub or whatever, Google is your friend.

Give a reason? How much of my posts did you read? If I said it was comparable to single parenting then maybe you should run a Google search on some case studies, and maybe even read about nuclear families. You will find so much information your head might literally explode. I know the data is out there, I am simple providing the argument here.

But both sides of this debate can find studies and YouTube videos that support their opinions as has been proven on this thread!

To be honest I read your posts on here and as others have said already, we don't agree with you!

Then don't agree with me, that is more than fine, it doesn't negate my argument, it still stands for someone of intelligence to come along and contend it. I am more than aware that the demographic within this particular thread holds opposite views to mine. That is obvious, and I knew that coming in here. I post simply for outside readers to read and ponder about. But I think we can all safely agree that the majority of the world, disagrees with you kind sir. If you want to start comparing popularity... let's have at it

a reply to: and14263

I can show you their websites, where they state their professional opinions on children of homosexual parents. I would trust a national association before I would trust a conservative, fundamentalist anti-gay website.

www.apa.org...

www.psychiatry.org...

pediatrics.aappublications.org...

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
The residual Puritanism of this country is astounding.

Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken

It is, indeed, and I love your Mencken quote. As far as I'm concerned, it's rather unseeming to take such a large interest in what other people are doing with their naughty bits, and I tend to find it reflects the personal suppression of 'urges' that some folks experience with discomfort.

So why do I pipe up? I hate bullies, is all.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

I see a lot of hot air, but not from Flammadraco.

The American Pediatric Association says that children of homosexual parents fare as well and sometimes better than children of heterosexual parents.

The American Psychological Association says that the children of homosexual parents are just as likely to flourish as children of heterosexual parents.

The American Psychiatric Association says that the children of homosexual parents are as likely to be healthy and well-adjusted as children of heterosexual parents.

What endorsements do you have? "Westboro" Family Research Council? Don't make me laugh.

I have no intention of making you laugh, any ways, I am curious - have you got studies from nations other than america? Let's get a bit of a mix shall well.

originally posted by: and14263

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: and14263

Can you answer the question I asked of you earlier in the thread;

Can you explain the 1500 species of animal that have homosexuality in them, is this nature or nurture?

Folk with the same opinion as you seem to ignore these hard questions?

My answer to this is that in certain circumstances our sexuality can bend/change to suit circumstances. Much like when men in all male prisons become attracted to each other. Yet ten years before they were straight. I can imagine that this is a factor in the animal world.

The next factor which springs to mind is awareness or consciousness. We have an innate urge to breed and have sex (back to the abnormal/normal question but let's not go there again) - when humans feel the urge they go for whatever gender they are attracted to. I honestly believe that when you look at which animals show homosexual behaviour they are not conscious enough to know what gender they are trying to fornicate with.

Wiki about gay animals

So the animals have the innate urge, nothing like a psyche/ego to be affected by the environment so they just go for it and chances are in the end they'll hit the opposite sex and make more.

I wasn't avoiding the question

Thanks for the answer but what you are describing when you say;

certain circumstances our sexuality can bend/change to suit circumstances

Is a bisexual person. There are more bisexual folk than completely straight or completely gay. As i have said to you before in another conversation, most homophobes are actually bisexual and are fighting there own demons. Every completely straight bloke I know has no issue with gay people as it has no effect on their life.

See the following pic as an example of what I am saying;



I don't agree with your analysis on why homosexuality exists in 1500 species. Having 1500 separate species of animal exhibit homosexuality would go some way to prove that we are talking Natural instead of Nurture.

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

But you've shown no scientific link between single parenting and homosexual parents. We have shown you numerous studies and multiple national associations who say that children do not suffer more with homosexual parents. I'm still waiting for someone of intelligence to come along and adequately - and scientifically - debate that.

Pffffft. You got nuthin but salad.