Whether Or Not Homosexuality Is A Choice Is Irrelevant

originally posted by: Prezbo369
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

You can say that 'normal' families have their issues too, but that is part of the human condition, being gay isn't and numerous studies have been conducted into the negatives of single-parenting which I feel is strongly comparable to homosexual parenting, and highly relevant, except homosexual parenting is a choice made that you make from the get-go, and not circumstantial.

Homosexuality isn't limited to humans it's common in many other species. Your description of homosexuality displays your bias on this issue as do your 'feelings' in regards to same sex parenting.

Can you give a reason why same sex parents are detrimental to a child's upbringing that isn't based purely on what has been traditional in the past or your subjective feelings and emotions?

That argument has been brought up time and time again, you can do your own independent research with regards to the impact of male and female parenting figures on say a tiger cub or whatever, Google is your friend.

Give a reason? How much of my posts did you read? If I said it was comparable to single parenting then maybe you should run a Google search on some case studies, and maybe even read about nuclear families. You will find so much information your head might literally explode. I know the data is out there, I am simple providing the argument here.

a reply to: and14263

Can you answer the question I asked of you earlier in the thread;

Can you explain the 1500 species of animal that have homosexuality in them, is this nature or nurture?

Folk with the same opinion as you seem to ignore these hard questions?

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: Prezbo369
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

You can say that 'normal' families have their issues too, but that is part of the human condition, being gay isn't and numerous studies have been conducted into the negatives of single-parenting which I feel is strongly comparable to homosexual parenting, and highly relevant, except homosexual parenting is a choice made that you make from the get-go, and not circumstantial.

Homosexuality isn't limited to humans it's common in many other species. Your description of homosexuality displays your bias on this issue as do your 'feelings' in regards to same sex parenting.

Can you give a reason why same sex parents are detrimental to a child's upbringing that isn't based purely on what has been traditional in the past or your subjective feelings and emotions?

That argument has been brought up time and time again, you can do your own independent research with regards to the impact of male and female parenting figures on say a tiger cub or whatever, Google is your friend.

Give a reason? How much of my posts did you read? If I said it was comparable to single parenting then maybe you should run a Google search on some case studies, and maybe even read about nuclear families. You will find so much information your head might literally explode. I know the data is out there, I am simple providing the argument here.

But both sides of this debate can find studies and YouTube videos that support their opinions as has been proven on this thread!

To be honest I read your posts on here and as others have said already, we don't agree with you!

a reply to: flammadraco

I was watching a programme about some lizard species in the States that is now mostly female, the female "mate" with each other to stimulate parthenegenis. This has lead to the male of the species becoming rare.
Probably the spawn of the devil in some peoples eyes lol.

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Surely the point you just made (other than the video) is against Single Mothers rather than Gay parents?

How can I be against single mothers, when I was raised by one who did a great job. In fact I cannot commend single mothers enough on the job they do, it must be the hardest pain to go through. The single parenting in this case is circumstantial, it just what life throws at you, so it is not your fault and you just accept the cards you are dealt.

In contrast, homosexual parenting is a choice, you openly go into family life knowing that your child will not have either a father figure or a mother figure, it is not circumstantial, and responsibility for the welfare of a child should be taken into consideration, especially the negative emotional impact it will have well into adulthood as displayed in the video.

a reply to: WilsonWilson

O No the World is going to End!

Funny thing is, most (Heterosexual Males) would not have an issue with two woman getting it on, just don't like to think about two guys doing it. This is where the hypocrisy of the whole issue arises!

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

In rough order of your presentation ...

What is the first sentence in your first response in this thread? Writing is indeed important as is reading; some would argue they go hand in hand in good communication.

Perhaps you didn't read what you wrote? Here, let me refresh your memory:

Let me begin with saying that your argument is flawed. By saying 'a person', as oppose to 'a homosexual', you are evading the topic and desensitising readers from the actual issue. You are doing this by subtly putting homosexuality forward as the norm (a person), when in actual fact homosexuality has not been proven to be normal or natural among the human population.

Not only did you clearly attempt to redefine the OP's argument, the scarecrow you're offering to replace it is patently dishonest. If you wish to be logical, use facts and arrange your argument in an accepted fashion. Forensics 101.

YOU are the one who made the logical fallacy of attempting, poorly, to redefine a claim made by the OP. This muttering about the demographics "beyond ATS" are completely irrelevant. You're making wild claims from ignorance. Whatever the "population of homosexuals" might be, you're now recognizing that homosexuals and homosexuality exists in the general population, and if you care to review even one of the links I provided, you can see that the measured "percentage" of homosexuality is well-above the statistical definition of "abnormal."

Any generic quality that is used to treat some individuals differently under the law is technically discriminatory and therefore unequal. Your attempt to red-circle homosexuality or sexual orientation as it were as different from all the other categories of societal classification merely reflects your own misunderstanding. Of course it can be and has been and will be placed into categories of sociological understanding ... despite your personal squeamishness.

Prove your claim. Prove that having same sex parents "will definitely provide a completely unique (negative) impact on the upbringing and emotional development of a child." What's your evidence? Anecdotal?

Come on you pretended to logical discourse here ... make a claim, provide evidence, organize the evidence into statements that validate your claim, voila!

You're muddling being raised by same sex parents to being raised in a single parent household. Care to clarify what you're actually talking about?

I copied the core of your argument for you. That's the way logic works, you present your premises first, and that's what you did. I showed you that your premises are flawed, thus, whatever followed is at best questionable.

There is no "general, widely accepted judgement" that states that homosexuality is abnormal. Conversely, "prove it."

You brought up the term "abnormal." If you now wish to discard it under better consideration, that's fine with me.

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Because you said the following;

ETA: fatherless children represent:

63% of teen suicides
70% of juveniles in state institutions
71% of high school dropouts
75% of children in chemical abuse centers
80% of rapists
85% of youths in prison
90% of homeless and runaway children

I have seen this first hand, with peoples from all walks of life.

As there are 10,000,000 single mothers in the US and only 111,000 gay parents, the stats you gave would be more inclined to the 10,000,000 single mothers!

You made the statement above not me!

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

I got a youtube video too:

As I have already provided a direct correlation between single parenting and homosexual parenting, it can be seen that in the majority of cases, homosexual parenting will have negative emotional impact on a child's development, this is backed up by case studies on single parenting.

Now you have provided one such case where it was okay, and I have already stated that not every child will be affected the same, this does not mean that a clear and present danger does not exist. Of course children all react differently to the environment they grow up in.

Homosexual parenting is an open choice. Single parenting is predominantly circumstantial.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

They are the ones who try to control and yes have some laws passed punishing gay people.

And if they get away with this, the next thing is telling women how to dress.

The residual Puritanism of this country is astounding.

Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.

H. L. Mencken

Read more at www.brainyquote.com...

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Are you really comparing tiger parenting with human parenting? Was that part of your 'independant research'?....

The animal comparison is brought up time and time again because it demonstrates that homosexuality is entirely natural and a part of life for a great many successful species.

You have made a great many claims with little to no evidence to back them up.

Or do you consider your feelings to be evidence?

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Apparently you missed my post on the studies I listed which showed that children of homosexual parents fare no worse, and in some ways fare better than children of heterosexual parents?

Where are your studies?

originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Because you said the following;

ETA: fatherless children represent:

63% of teen suicides
70% of juveniles in state institutions
71% of high school dropouts
75% of children in chemical abuse centers
80% of rapists
85% of youths in prison
90% of homeless and runaway children

I have seen this first hand, with peoples from all walks of life.

As there are 10,000,000 single mothers in the US and only 111,000 gay parents, the stats you gave would be more inclined to the 10,000,000 single mothers!

You made the statement above not me!

Right, and I have been saying all along, that a fatherless child is the same as a fatherless figure in a gay marriage. I merely presented the stats to emphasise the impact of such. I am comparing the two environments, it is not blaming the 10 million single mothers at all? it is showing what happens as a result of a father not being present (whether dead or ran away or whatever).


Why are you being so trivial, I am sure you knew what I meant.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

And if they get away with this, the next thing is telling women how to dress.

Correct. You just answered the OP's question.

originally posted by: flammadraco

So what word does one utilise now then if Homophobes has changed its previous meaning? Would "Bigot" be more suitable?

That depends I guess on one's intent.

You and I both have gone through enough experiences in life to know when someone is directing real hatred towards us, or a real desire (or justification of the desire) to cause harm to us based on our sexual orientation.

I would wager that many of the folks here reading have not ever or have rarely experienced what it's like to be truly hated face-to-face not because of what you do, but because of who you are (or because of who you are perceived to be.) There is "theoretical hate" like racism and reverse racism ... and then there is a group of teenaged boys trying to beat the $%^# out of me because I walked down a certain street at a certain time. (And let's just say I was lucky, and gave as good as I got.)

I will never tell anyone else what terms they can use. I may point out the facts of a given matter, but I'm not in the business of being the word police (at least, I hope not.)

Best,

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101


Homosexual parenting is an open choice. Single parenting is predominantly circumstantial.

ALL parenting is by choice. One could always abort or give up one's child. Homosexuals usually have to work a little harder to get children, so they are usually better prepared and better equipped to raise them.

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Homosexual parenting is an open choice. Single parenting is predominantly circumstantial.

5 Scientific Reasons Gay Parents Are Awesome

1. They choose to have kids

Straight couples all to frequently have "oops" babies. According to the Guttmacher Institute, about half of U.S. pregnancies are unplanned, and about half of those unplanned pregnancies end in birth rather than abortion. Parents of unplanned babies can do a great job, of course, but some are in dire circumstances. Two-thirds of unplanned births in 2006 were paid for by Medicaid or other low-income insurance programs, according to Guttmacher.

Gay couples, in contrast, generally have to plan to have babies, overcoming biological limits to adopt, find surrogates or sperm donors, or use in vitro fertilization methods. After persevering through those challenges, gay parents "tend to be more motivated, more committed than heterosexual parents on average, because they chose to be parents," Abbie Goldberg, a psychologist at Clark University in Massachusetts who researches gay and lesbian parenting, told LiveScience last year.

2. They nurture the neediest

Gay parents are a huge resource for kids awaiting adoption, particularly the neediest cases. In October 2011, the Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute found that 60 percent of gay and lesbian adoptive parentsadopt across races, which is important because minority kids have a tougher time getting out of the foster system. And 25 percent of kids placed with adoptive gay and lesbian parents were older than 3 — also a tough age range to adopt. More than half of the kids had special needs.

3. They foster tolerance

Here's an advantage straight from the horse's mouth: Kids raised by gay and lesbian parents say their upbringing taught them open-mindedness and empathy.

In a 2007 study published in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, Clark University's Goldberg interviewed 46 adults who grew up with at least one gay parent. Twenty-eight of the interviewees independently mentioned that they felt their upbringing made them more tolerant and accepting.

4. Their kids do fine in school

Kids of gay parents appear to do well academically, too. A review of all of the existing research on same-sex parents and their children, published in 2010, found that their grade point averages (GPA) were on par with kids of two-parent heterosexual homes. In a study comparing teens living in both types of households, boys of lesbian parents had an average GPA of 2.9, compared with 2.65 for boys of heterosexual parents. Teen girls raised by two moms had an average GPA of 2.8, compared with 2.9 for girls raised by a mother and father. (Because more lesbians than gay men have children, studies on the former are more common.)

5. They raise confident children

An upbringing in a same-sex household can give kids a boost of confidence. In a 2010 study published in the journal Pediatrics, researchers examined the kids of planned lesbian families, in which a single lesbian mother or two lesbian partners decided to have kids, in contrast to bringing them to the relationship from previous heterosexual partnerships. Like other studies of lesbian moms, this one found no significant differences from straight parents in kids' development and social behavior.

Source

And to add that according to "and14263" due to the fact you were bought up in a "Single Parent Environment" you should be gay too! Funny how I have 11 siblings and two parents and I'm gay and you were bought up in a single parent environment and your straight! How peculiar, two people on this thread bucking the trend!

originally posted by: Prezbo369
a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Are you really comparing tiger parenting with human parenting? Was that part of your 'independant research'?....

The animal comparison is brought up time and time again because it demonstrates that homosexuality is entirely natural and a part of life for a great many successful species.

You have made a great many claims with little to no evidence to back them up.

Or do you consider your feelings to be evidence?

The fact that you bring up animals, means that you want to compare the natural order of humanity with the natural order of animals. I don't see why you need to compare the two, unless you want to boil everything down to physical characteristics, because Humans transcend animals on a concious and awareness level, and you are really sidestepping the main issue here - there a numerous threads on ATS that deal with your point.

It is not the point of this thread.

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

You can't just create a correlation out of thin air. You need data to back it up. Declaring that a fatherless home for a child is the same as a home with homosexual parents is just a wild assumption without evidence backing up the link.

a reply to: TheJourney

Easy answer to your easy question.

It is not us but them.

They are the ones who have the problem with some people being gay.