Neil DeGrasse Tyson: ET and DNA

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Scdfa
Science will never find evidence if it refuses to look for evidence.

The first irrefutable proof of life beyond Earth is far more likely to come from the work of scientists on projects like those I mentioned above than from a reported alien abduction in a tabloid or a youtube video misidentifying lights in the sky as an "alien spacecraft".

I'm sure that is your sincerest wish, Jade. Your profound love and faith in "scientists" is clear for all to see, and I, for one, find that endearing. It is unfortunate that they have failed you, and the rest of us, so badly these past fifty years. Alien contact has been a fact of life for a great many people since long before you were born.

Your long, long wait for "irrefutable proof" comes at quite a cost.

It has marginalized and ostracized people from all walks of life who have been forced to bear the weight of alien contact entirely on their own. And it is a heavy weight.

We live with the dichotomy; a generation that grew up in a world where aliens are simply a fact of life, but outnumbered by people who choose to reject any such information.

People are allowed to treat alien abductees with the same type of prejudice that society no longer tolerates for the most part.

And folks, You see some of that prejudice here, when Jade refers to "a reported alien abduction in a tabloid". How insulting and demeaning, her attitude that news on alien abductions is for the tabloids, and not more mainstream news sources.

That is the same kind of backwards thinking that we can do without, in my opinion.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Good job on deflecting and completely skipping over the fact that your quoted definition of evidence was mostly in legal terms.

I quoted the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of the word "evidence".

Is it your contention that police reports and witness testimony do not fall within those definitions of evidence?

Yes, its evidence of hallucinations. You have yet to answer how abduction experiences differ from hallucinations. Surely you know what a hallucination is. Don't avoid the question with pathetic insults this time.
Thank you very much my deadhead brother

Zeta, at this point, I choose to decline to answer belligerent posts like this. There isn't much of substance here to discuss, and I feel we come to this topic from very different levels.

And I thought you said earlier that you were not a deadhead? At any rate, be well.

a reply to: Scdfa

Zeta, at this point, I choose to decline to answer belligerent posts like this. There isn't much of substance here to discuss, and I feel we come to this topic from very different levels.

Its a sincere question. One that I have not found an answer to yet. Its obviously not an a easy question to answer since there really is no way to distinguish a hallucination from an abduction experience. We can use dreams if that is less offensive. But really, with no physical evidence, what is ruling out hallucinations? We have enough stuff in our brains to produce the type of detail reported in every abduction story.

And I thought you said earlier that you were not a deadhead?

I did? Where? I'm just not the type you are. I tried to use some humor to see where you were at and it showed me that you are at a certain level. You see there was a wide variety of folks there and, no, we didn't all see things the same way as you. I have learned invaluable lessons from that time period. Many of my close friends really lost touch with reality and after all these years have never really got back in touch. I know the scene at a very personal and intimate level and have talked about here many times. And no, I dont always talk about it fondly and that's my prerogative since its entirely my experience.

You see EVERYONE has personal experiences, not just you. Most people understand what that means and dont expect or demand their personal experiences to be taken at face value by anyone especially science! That is completely unreasonable on every level. Personal experiences are just that, personal.

Why are your personal experiences any better than anyone else's? You see, my experiences and insights tell me that the mind is quite capable of producing abduction experiences. Its actually pretty well documented too. Real aliens are not.

At any rate, be well.

Forgive me if I dont believe your sincerity.

For people that dont know....dont be too judgmental.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Its a sincere question. One that I have not found an answer to yet. Its obviously not an a easy question to answer since there really is no way to distinguish a hallucination from an abduction experience. We can use dreams if that is less offensive. But really, with no physical evidence, what is ruling out hallucinations? We have enough stuff in our brains to produce the type of detail reported in every abduction story.

Back in the early 90's I was visiting a psychologist and this very sort of issue came up. I had had an experience that involved being on an alien spacecraft, and we spent some time discussing it.

This doctor had spent some time doing research on memory, specifically...for his Ph.D.

He told me that a "waking" memory differs from a "non-waking" memory in some very specific ways. The most important and probably noticeable of those being environment detail. It seems that when One is actually awake and experiencing something the level of environmental detail is significantly greater. The idea here is that IF you are awake and experiencing then your peripheral senses pick up on a great variety of thing, many that you don't really notice at the time. Conversely, if One is not awake and the brain has to manufacture this detail, it tends to fail by not supplying enough, consistent detail.

When we discussed this it was mostly stuff that was outside my experience. In that I had no reference for the different types of memory...Until I had surgery and a rather interesting "recovery room" experience. While in the recovery room I would drift in and out of consciousness, probably very typical. But, this allowed me t later actually "see" those differenced the psychologist was talking about. I still find the whole thing rather incredible, and the differences in the experiential memory is quite remarkable and noticeable to those who are honest with themselves.

So, anyway, there may be a way to get a better handle on these abduction experiences after all.

a reply to: tanka418

So, anyway, there may be a way to get a better handle on these abduction experiences after all.

Thanks for sharing that. That was really interesting. I dont disagree with you at all. To be clear, I am not suggesting that all experiences are not real or are just hallucinations, I am just trying to determine how they differ. Still, those experiences are subjective and are very difficult to translate into objective reality. Even so, I believe that people do experience something that is outside our current understanding. Its a really fuzzy area which is why science would stay away from it. Science has yet to understand consciousness and the human mind nor does science have a definition for extraterrestrial or interdemsional and if all three of these things are intermingled, there is a lot of work ahead.

originally posted by: tanka418
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Its a sincere question. One that I have not found an answer to yet. Its obviously not an a easy question to answer since there really is no way to distinguish a hallucination from an abduction experience. We can use dreams if that is less offensive. But really, with no physical evidence, what is ruling out hallucinations? We have enough stuff in our brains to produce the type of detail reported in every abduction story.

Back in the early 90's I was visiting a psychologist and this very sort of issue came up. I had had an experience that involved being on an alien spacecraft, and we spent some time discussing it.

This doctor had spent some time doing research on memory, specifically...for his Ph.D.

He told me that a "waking" memory differs from a "non-waking" memory in some very specific ways. The most important and probably noticeable of those being environment detail. It seems that when One is actually awake and experiencing something the level of environmental detail is significantly greater. The idea here is that IF you are awake and experiencing then your peripheral senses pick up on a great variety of thing, many that you don't really notice at the time. Conversely, if One is not awake and the brain has to manufacture this detail, it tends to fail by not supplying enough, consistent detail.

When we discussed this it was mostly stuff that was outside my experience. In that I had no reference for the different types of memory...Until I had surgery and a rather interesting "recovery room" experience. While in the recovery room I would drift in and out of consciousness, probably very typical. But, this allowed me t later actually "see" those differenced the psychologist was talking about. I still find the whole thing rather incredible, and the differences in the experiential memory is quite remarkable and noticeable to those who are honest with themselves.

So, anyway, there may be a way to get a better handle on these abduction experiences after all.

Very interesting, tanka, thanks for that. Personally, I have never had difficulty distinguishing reality from dreams, nightmares, or anything else.

To confuse an alien abduction with a hallucination strikes me as an absurd proposition.

If a SWAT team were to burst through your door, arrest you, and drag you away in their SWAT van, do you think you would be likely to confuse that with a dream or hallucination?

a reply to: Scdfa

To confuse an alien abduction with a hallucination strikes me as an absurd proposition.

Its not really a proposition since its readily demonstrable. Its pretty well documented that people see things that aren't there and think they are real. Its been known for some time now.

If a SWAT team were to burst through your door, arrest you, and drag you away in their SWAT van, do you think you would be likely to confuse that with a dream or hallucination?

First we all know SWAT teams exist and that there will be evidence if such an event occurred. In the case of alien abductions, there has never been any tangible evidence left ever. Also, It is certainly possible to have very traumatic memories of things that never happened. There is a whole bunch of things to contend with before you get to something being "real". If there was no evidence of the SWAT team whatsoever, then what? People have been making all sorts of claims for various reasons sine there have been people. Not many of those thing have made it to "real".

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian


First we all know SWAT teams exist and that there will be evidence if such an event occurred. In the case of alien abductions, there has never been any tangible evidence left ever. Also, It is certainly possible to have very traumatic memories of things that never happened. There is a whole bunch of things to contend with before you get to something being "real". If there was no evidence of the SWAT team whatsoever, then what? People have been making all sorts of claims for various reasons sine there have been people. Not many of those thing have made it to "real".

The thing about this here is why aren't the abductees perceptions credible? I mean, if it was something terrestrial, of course that can easily be explained but when these abductees describe something extraterrestrial, why can't they give a detailed description of whatever it was with some high degree of accuracy? Just because we, or rather the scientific community, have never seen or have evidence of said entity, why should we still doubt their perception? It's like as if it's either terrestrial or you imagined or hallucinated. That's blocking out potential possibilities, which in turn would hamper the investigation of the phenomenon.

a reply to: TrueMessiah
In short, Carl Sagan said it best:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
A SWAT team abduction isn't an extraordinary claim, but an alien abduction is.

Somewhat related, here is the guy who doesn't believe in alien abductions talking about his alien abduction hallucination:

Video clip from the 1983 Race Across America, when competitive cyclist and skeptic Michael Shermer had an alien abduction experience after 83 straight hours of sleep deprivation and 1800 miles of nonstop cycling.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

The thing about this here is why aren't the abductees perceptions credible? I mean, if it was something terrestrial, of course that can easily be explained but when these abductees describe something extraterrestrial, why can't they give a detailed description of whatever it was with some high degree of accuracy? Just because we, or rather the scientific community, have never seen or have evidence of said entity, why should we still doubt their perception? It's like as if it's either terrestrial or you imagined or hallucinated. That's blocking out potential possibilities, which in turn would hamper the investigation of the phenomenon.

I think you are ultimately correct and make a good point. Personally, I don't think we should dismiss these things. It is information after all. This is where I diverge from Tyson's comedy show. He is correct in the sense that there is not much to do with this type of data but should we just dismiss it? Even if we get insight into perceptions, hallucinations or whatever, its information. There really isn't a whole lot that we do understand where we can clearly and definitively say "this is a false perception and this isn't". There are clearly examples of where things are experienced as real when they aren't. And really, this is the crux of the issue and why we cant really say "this is real" with any certainty at all. People may have had real encounters and it could be crystal clear to them exactly what transpired. The problem is that we cant all experience exactly what someone else experienced.

It certainly doesn't hurt learning everything we can about perception in regards to the entire phenomenon since that is all we have to go on! But think about it. Even if ET is flying around abducting people or whatever, you STILL have to deal with perception. Now if they do indeed have the ability to manipulate our memories and talk to us telepathically, then what else can they control inside our heads? What if they are something else like hyper dimensional and they have the ability to control our perceptions entirely? What if we are just born to experience these things? People have been experiencing things for a long, long time without anything concrete to show. Its tricky business, that's for sure.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: TrueMessiah
In short, Carl Sagan said it best:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
A SWAT team abduction isn't an extraordinary claim, but an alien abduction is.

Somewhat related, here is the guy who doesn't believe in alien abductions talking about his alien abduction hallucination:

Video clip from the 1983 Race Across America, when competitive cyclist and skeptic Michael Shermer had an alien abduction experience after 83 straight hours of sleep deprivation and 1800 miles of nonstop cycling.

Even with a lack of any kind of evidence we can't just dismiss these claims as all hallucination or imagination. To do so would be totally counterproductive to ufology study. That was my point.

That video isn't applicable due to the fact that that cycler was severely debilitated. A condition such as that would compromise physical AND mental stability. It's almost comparable to someone taking a psychoactive drug. There's no telling what he was liable to have seen, or thought he had seen in a state like that. I don't think there are too many abductees who fit into that realm of conditioning prior to their abduction experience.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

It's almost comparable to someone taking a psychoactive drug.

Lets examine that because it is an important piece of the puzzle. There is a substance that, when taken, causes people to see beings and entities in vivid detail. So much so that they believe they saw and interacted with real entities. The entities are described to be very much like aliens.
consider the study by Dr. Rick Strassman:

realitysandwich.com...
Though expecting mystical raptures and deep psychological insights, in his study he
was astonished to find many of his volunteers reporting unexpected encounters
with strange and sometimes disturbing alien beings with advanced technology in
what amounted to classical UFO "abduction" experiences. Unable to explain away the volunteers'
experiences, he concluded that these were genuine encounters with independent
sentient beings in otherwise normally invisible dimensions.

...and in reviewing people's accounts of their experiences,
probably half, maybe more, reported having the experience of being in some sort
of contact, some sort of relationship, more or less passive, more or less
active, with these free standing, discretely demarcated, sentient sort of
beings. I ended up calling them "beings"
rather than "entities" or "aliens" or any of that sort of thing because it
seemed like the most neutral term to use, but they were described in various
shapes and forms and guises. Sometimes
they were humanoid, sometimes they were insectoid, sometimes they were reptilian,
and sometimes plant-like. They were more
or less aware of the volunteers.
Oftentimes they seemed to be expecting the volunteers and were glad to
see them, and then began interacting with them.

Other times they seemed surprised and
angry that the volunteers' consciousness, at the very least, had intruded upon
the sphere of activity of that particular being. Sometimes the volunteers were treated or
experimented on. Sometimes they
experienced some type of sexual intercourse with the beings. Some were told scenarios of the future. Others were marked somehow or another for
future reference in a way. Others
showered light and love onto them.
Others were guides to lead them to some other place, like through a
tunnel leading to a typical near death or mystical experience. So it was the whole gamut of what you might
expect.

Some of the motifs were pretty
classical science fiction – kind of flying toward a space station or a space
ship, or automatons or robots were busily doing their business. Sometimes they would see very hard to
describe hybrid entities – machine/animal, even furniture kinds of
conglomerates of beings.

The kicker is that our bodies make the stuff and its closely tied with melatonin which is a sleep hormone. One theory is that under certain conditions, there is a spontaneous release of the stuff. All the elements are right there and yet its impossible to prove that this occurs at all!

Oh, my point. Now if these folks report seeing beings and are convinced of their reality, can we just dismiss this as people on drugs? Wouldn't that be hypocritical? If we accept that these are as real as any other alien encounter, then we accept that our bodies make a substance naturally that causes us to see entities.

If a SWAT team were to burst through your door, arrest you, and drag you away in their SWAT van, do you think you would be likely to confuse that with a dream or hallucination?

First we all know SWAT teams exist and that there will be evidence if such an event occurred. Also, It is certainly possible to have very traumatic memories of things that never happened. There is a whole bunch of things to contend with before you get to something being "real". If there was no evidence of the SWAT team whatsoever, then what?



So, Zeta, you're saying that if a SWAT team were to burst through your door, arrest you, and drag you away in their SWAT van, that you would be likely to confuse that with a dream or hallucination, were it not for the fact that there would be evidence of the event.

Interesting.

Speaking for myself, I'd have no such problem. My ability to discern reality from dreams or hallucinations without evidence is not nearly so tenuous.

a reply to: Scdfa
The real problem would be convincing others, which you are apparently have a problem doing

My ability to discern reality from dreams or hallucinations without evidence is not nearly so tenuous.

I have no idea how you experience reality or even how you define it and I really don't care. Its your world, not mine so don't try to insert your aliens into everyone else's reality.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
Even with a lack of any kind of evidence we can't just dismiss these claims as all hallucination or imagination. To do so would be totally counterproductive to ufology study. That was my point.

It depends on how you define "dismiss" or maybe "dismiss" isn't the right word.

If you consider possible explanations for these experiences, you're right that we can't say with 100% confidence they never happened, so if that's your definition of "dismiss" then we shouldn't dismiss them.

If on the other hand you seek to list all the possible explanations for these experiences, and assign probabilities to the possible explanations, when people report interactions with entities for which there isn't and never has been any physical evidence, be they angels, demons, or aliens, it would certainly make sense to assign higher probabilities to known effects of perception of the human mind, and lower probabilities to the existence of such entities for which there is no real evidence. A scientific approach would tend concentrate on known perception science, resulting in assigning low probabilities to the perceptions being real. If this is a different definition of "dismiss" then this type of dismissal might be entirely logical.

Anyone experiencing multiple abductions from their bedroom for example could and should set up a camcorder to record themselves while they sleep. If they have an abduction experience, review the tape and see if it shows anything. This would be some evidence beyond human perception and would be given more weight than human perception. That's what Tyson is saying in the UFO video that we need some other kind of evidence, besides "I saw...." whatever you put in the blank. Here is an interesting perspective from Sagan:

Alien Abduction

In The Demon-Haunted World astronomer Carl Sagan points out that the alien abduction experience is remarkably similar to tales of demon abduction common throughout history. "There is no spaceship in these stories. But most of the central elements of the alien abduction account are present, including sexually obsessive non-humans who live in the sky, walk through walls, communicate telepathically, and perform breeding experiments on the human species. Unless we believe that demons really exist, how can we understand so strange a belief system, embraced by the whole Western world (including those considered the wisest among us), reinforced by personal experience in every generation, and taught by Church and State? Is there any real alternative besides a shared delusion based on common brain wiring and chemistry?"

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa
The real problem would be convincing others, which you are apparently have a problem doing

Don't worry, I understand what you were trying to say here, I think.

Yes, there are many factors that make raising awareness of alien contact difficult. I don't like to use the word "convince". No person can change another's mind, change comes from within. I can only raise awareness.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa
The real problem would be convincing others, which you are apparently have a problem doing

Don't worry, I understand what you were trying to say here, I think.

Yes, there are many factors that make raising awareness of alien contact difficult. I don't like to use the word "convince". No person can change another's mind, change comes from within. I can only raise awareness.

What makes you think that everyone else needs their awareness raised? This is probably your fundamental issue and why you might cause so much conflict with folks. Its wonderful that you have had personal experiences but they are your personal experiences. Just like my personal experiences are mine and are just as valid as yours. My awareness is perfectly fine. Keep your aliens on your side of the fence!

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Anyone experiencing multiple abductions from their bedroom for example could and should set up a camcorder to record themselves while they sleep. If they have an abduction experience, review the tape and see if it shows anything. This would be some evidence beyond human perception and would be given more weight than human perception. That's what Tyson is saying in the UFO video that we need some other kind of evidence,

Yes, because the aliens are not very bright, and would be unable to recognize any technology as highly advanced as a camcorder. Why, they'd probably think it was sorcery, or some form of magic. They might just fall to their alien knees right there and worship that shiny camcorder as a god. Then we got 'em!

In all fairness to Arbitrageur, this has been attempted.

a reply to: Scdfa

Yes, because the aliens are not very bright, and would be unable to recognize any technology as highly advanced as a camcorder. Why, they'd probably think it was sorcery, or some form of magic. They might just fall to their alien knees right there and worship that shiny camcorder as a god. Then we got 'em!

So what do the aliens do when they detect a camcorder? Do they avoid it? Do they disable it? Do they make it disappear?
Even if they stop the camcorder from recording, you have something predictable and you have a timestamp of the event. Not too shabby. But my guess is nothing happens and the abduction takes place anyway.

In all fairness to Arbitrageur, this has been attempted.

By whom? What were the results? If I was getting abducted, my house would wired up...it already is so that's why they probably avoid me.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
Even with a lack of any kind of evidence we can't just dismiss these claims as all hallucination or imagination. To do so would be totally counterproductive to ufology study. That was my point.

It depends on how you define "dismiss" or maybe "dismiss" isn't the right word.

If you consider possible explanations for these experiences, you're right that we can't say with 100% confidence they never happened, so if that's your definition of "dismiss" then we shouldn't dismiss them.

That was the definition I was using.

Anyone experiencing multiple abductions from their bedroom for example could and should set up a camcorder to record themselves while they sleep. If they have an abduction experience, review the tape and see if it shows anything. This would be some evidence beyond human perception and would be given more weight than human perception. That's what Tyson is saying in the UFO video that we need some other kind of evidence, besides "I saw...." whatever you put in the blank. Here is an interesting perspective from Sagan:

Alien Abduction

In The Demon-Haunted World astronomer Carl Sagan points out that the alien abduction experience is remarkably similar to tales of demon abduction common throughout history. "There is no spaceship in these stories. But most of the central elements of the alien abduction account are present, including sexually obsessive non-humans who live in the sky, walk through walls, communicate telepathically, and perform breeding experiments on the human species. Unless we believe that demons really exist, how can we understand so strange a belief system, embraced by the whole Western world (including those considered the wisest among us), reinforced by personal experience in every generation, and taught by Church and State? Is there any real alternative besides a shared delusion based on common brain wiring and chemistry?"

The only thing about this is that I don't know if it's possible for any camera to capture any metaphysical aspects like these. This part of the phenomenon (that Sagan touched on) has been explained extensively in Val Valerians books, specifically Matrix 2 where the greys and possibly other alien entities have shown the ability to manipulate matter (navigate through, de/rematerialize solid constructs) and abduct not the physical body but extract the astral body with the abductee only being knowledgeable of "missing time" after it's all over said and done. Then there's shapeshifting, telepathy, and manipulation of human perception via operating outside of 3rd density in other areas of the electromagnetic spectrum. Of course, all of this is beyond human perception and it would take a great deal of clairvoyance from a human, let alone a camera to pick up on any of this so I don't expect any gains in this area anytime soon without some exclusive technological advancements. I would take time out to look some of this stuff up but the books are so vast and my memory is foggy at the moment....I wish I could pinpoint exactly where it is but I don't know offhand where to look. I'll have to scan through it again. If I'm not mistaken, there's insider abductee testimony and underground base coworker testimony that can attest to this. One of these days I'll put together a thread on this.....one of these days.