The Rise of Deadly Methane Gas

originally posted by: Rezlooper

originally posted by: Sunwolf
So,why all the the hysteria about CO2 then?It isn`t carbon dioxide that is the problem?

And to add to the poster above, CO2 levels are also extremely high and this in turn traps heat, but over a 100 year cycle, methane is 25 times more effective at trapping the sun's heat. Now that methane levels are escalating right along with CO2, it's a much more dire situation.

The thing is that only recently is methane now starting to get the attention it deserves from the scientific community and the main reason is that the global warming debate has focused so much for so long on CO2 that they were afraid they would lose all that ground made over these years if attention was diverted to CH4.

Still tragically for believers in this, it all remains theoretical. Remember Al Gore sounding the alarm the arctic would be ice free last decade? It never happened. It's just not getting warmer with 48 states reporting snow. If methane is a problem, sure the mainstream media won't report it. They are in love with CO2, and to admit methane is just as bad a problem or worse, they and the scientific establishment that have to admit CO2 dangers were exaggerated. If methane is a real problem, there won't be any funding because it all went to CO2. As a matter of fact, there will be less funding for medical services, electrical grids and real pollution control because of harmless CO2. If this methane argument is true, then the first thing that would be required is a psychological divestment in this CO2 nonsense.

originally posted by: naftaland

originally posted by: Rezlooper

Still tragically for believers in this, it all remains theoretical. Remember Al Gore sounding the alarm the arctic would be ice free last decade? It never happened. It's just not getting warmer with 48 states reporting snow. If methane is a problem, sure the mainstream media won't report it. They are in love with CO2, and to admit methane is just as bad a problem or worse, they and the scientific establishment that have to admit CO2 dangers were exaggerated. If methane is a real problem, there won't be any funding because it all went to CO2. As a matter of fact, there will be less funding for medical services, electrical grids and real pollution control because of harmless CO2. If this methane argument is true, then the first thing that would be required is a psychological divestment in this CO2 nonsense.

On the next thread The Truth about Atmospheric Methane and it's Role in Global Warming I touch on some of what you're saying here. You're right about the focus of the debate...for too long now it has been on CO2 when the real threat, methane, snuck in the backdoor on us. And now, there has been too much invested in the CO2 debate and they''ll never admit that they had it wrong. At the end of the long post for the next thread I linked, Jonny Mnemonic of the Jumping Jack Flash Hypothesis says that Al Gore got it wrong and that the one thing, which so many skeptics use as their grounds for dismissing global warming, is that the warming temperatures in the historical record came before the CO2 rise. If CO2 was the cause, then it should have risen first or at the same time, but it lagged behind. He explains how it was really hydrogen sulfide and methane gases that first warmed the planet, and then CO2 levels rose and one of the factors was because methane converted to CO2.

a reply to: Rezlooper

Yep, methane will continue to rise more so because the increase in volcanic and seismic activity which is melting glaciers and releasing methane and other gases from permafrost. Some years back I wrote in a couple of ATS threads that we would have to eventually live underground, or leave the planet to escape these changes the planet will continue to go through, if they do continue happening.

If you search the literature and history of past civilizations there have been many cases in which entire civilizations were displaced from the cities they constructed and lived in for who knows how long. In many cases it is not known where the people of those civilizations went. Except, you might find the answer in the stories of the descendants of these ancient people.

Long ago, Pueblo people lived far away up north. At first they lived underground, in a holy place called Sipapu. Then people climbed up through a hole in the earth into the sunlight (compare this to the Navajo creation story). God guided them for many years as they wandered (compare the Jewish story of Moses). People suffered many bad things like tornadoes and drought (not enough water) and bad magicians, before they got to a good land where they could settle down.
...

www.historyforkids.org...

The Mojave have a similar story that they once lived underground, as well as some other tribes.

In fact, it is my opinion that the stories of the native people that they arose from caves in the Earth was very likely based on fact, and they very probably had to live in underground caves to escape similar changes that the Earth went through in the past.

What we don't know for certain is when this will happen. However, I am certain that eventually if the human race is to survive and the changes continue to get worse, we will have no other choice but to either build large cities or towns underground, or we have to leave the planet until the changes stabilize and we can return to the surface of the Earth again.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I couldn't agree with you more, Electric. Later in the book I actually discuss some of this and Jonny Mnemonic of the Jumping Jack Flash Hypothesis states the same. He believes that even underground may not be good enough.

originally posted by: Rezlooper


And to add to the poster above, CO2 levels are also extremely high and this in turn traps heat, but over a 100 year cycle, methane is 25 times more effective at trapping the sun's heat. Now that methane levels are escalating right along with CO2, it's a much more dire situation.

The thing is that only recently is methane now starting to get the attention it deserves from the scientific community and the main reason is that the global warming debate has focused so much for so long on CO2 that they were afraid they would lose all that ground made over these years if attention was diverted to CH4.

Rez, that's what I disagree with. The levels of CO2 are not extremely high. They have been much higher in the past, and in many instances even though CO2 levels were higher in the past than now there was global cooling, and not warming.

Remember that as the planet warms, such as it had been doing since the last Ice age and after the Little Ice age, as the atmosphere warms it can contain more water vapor, this causes a feedback loop in which more water vapor heats the atmosphere more and in turn causes the atmosphere to contain more water vapor and so on.

Water vapor is molecule for molecule 10 times more potent as a ghg than CO2, and water vapor exists at a much higher level than CO2. If in the Troposphere, the atmospheric layer of Earth where all surface weather and surface climate occurs, water vapor accounts for 95% to 97% or more of the greenhouse effect, why the continue attempt to blame it on CO2?

Even the majority of the GCMs (Global Circulation Models) are wrong because they overestimate how much heat is "trapped" by CO2.



Not to mention that they don't take in consideration natural factors that affect the climate, including some of the other changes the Earth has been going through, such as the weakening of Earth's magnetic field, or the increase in volcanic and seismic activity, or the changes the Sun had been undergoing, or the other changes the solar system in general has been undergoing.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The levels may not be extremely high but they are higher than what is considered a safe level. But, I think more of what I meant by that statement was that in combination with methane gas, which is very high, GHG's are extremely high.



Source

a reply to: Rezlooper


What safe level are you talking about?

CO2 levels are nowhere unsafe as they are right now.

I am sorry but that website is wrong if it claims CO2 levels are unsafe. If it wasn't why are most GCMs overestimating the amount of heat trapped by CO2?... And remember, water vapor didn't disappear, it is still a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 would ever be.

During the Medieval Warming, the Roman Warming, and the Minoan Warming temperatures were MUCH MUCH higher than now, and CO2 levels were at 280ppm -290 ppm. It was water vapor, and whatever other natural factor, probably the Sun, that started the warming during those past warming periods. Just like it did after the Little Ice Age.

Borehole global temperatures prove that the Earth began warming in the 1600s, even as the LIA was still being felt in some areas around the world.




The amount of heat trapped by CO2 is negligible, and the main gas that traps heat on Earth's Troposphere is water vapor, not CO2.

Not that long ago I posted the statement from a scientist who is a proponent of the AGW claim, admitting that water vapor accounts for 97% of the greenhouse effect.

Yes, there are claims that water vapor accounts for less, some will claim only 60%, but what they don't tell you is that they are not talking about the water vapor found in the Troposphere. They are including the water vapor in the higher regions of Earth's atmosphere. Regions of the atmosphere which are ice cold.

a reply to: Rezlooper
I've seen you do allot of methane threads in the past. And I see you take this matter very serious.
I think maybe that it could be the cause of the many unexplained mysteries, like the missing Malaysian airplane.

Russian scientists have spotted methane plumes/bubbles that are more than a kilometer in diameter coming to surface along the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, which is the largest continental shelf in the world. Seventy-five percent (75%) of the sea over the shelf is shallow water, less than 50 metres deep, and consequently more immediately exposed to warming trends.

I recently read this news topic about the mysterious sinkholes that are occurring more frequently in Russia .

Dozens of new craters suspected in northern Russia

Maybe it ads up to your thread..

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Rezlooper


What safe level are you talking about?

CO2 levels are nowhere unsafe as they are right now.

I am sorry but that website is wrong if it claims CO2 levels are unsafe. If it wasn't why are most GCMs overestimating the amount of heat trapped by CO2?... And remember, water vapor didn't disappear, it is still a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 would ever be.

During the Medieval Warming, the Roman Warming, and the Minoan Warming temperatures were MUCH MUCH higher than now, and CO2 levels were at 280ppm -290 ppm. It was water vapor, and whatever other natural factor, probably the Sun, that started the warming during those past warming periods. Just like it did after the Little Ice Age.

Borehole global temperatures prove that the Earth began warming in the 1600s, even as the LIA was still being felt in some areas around the world.

The amount of heat trapped by CO2 is negligible, and the main gas that traps heat on Earth's Troposphere is water vapor, not CO2.

Not that long ago I posted the statement from a scientist who is a proponent of the AGW claim, admitting that water vapor accounts for 97% of the greenhouse effect.

Yes, there are claims that water vapor accounts for less, some will claim only 60%, but what they don't tell you is that they are not talking about the water vapor found in the Troposphere. They are including the water vapor in the higher regions of Earth's atmosphere. Regions of the atmosphere which are ice cold.

I notice that the water vapor graph started its increases just as the Industrial Age started, the same as methane gas release. In order for water vapor to increase, it needs a warming atmosphere so something would have to initiate the warming first, which is most likely methane gas. It's the same for CO2. In the past warming periods, CO2 increases followed a warming, which was caused by increasing methane gas. This is what is happening now, both water vapor and CO2 are increasing but it was the methane gas that initiated a warming trend.

originally posted by: 0bserver1
a reply to: Rezlooper
I've seen you do allot of methane threads in the past. And I see you take this matter very serious.
I think maybe that it could be the cause of the many unexplained mysteries, like the missing Malaysian airplane.

Russian scientists have spotted methane plumes/bubbles that are more than a kilometer in diameter coming to surface along the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, which is the largest continental shelf in the world. Seventy-five percent (75%) of the sea over the shelf is shallow water, less than 50 metres deep, and consequently more immediately exposed to warming trends.

I recently read this news topic about the mysterious sinkholes that are occurring more frequently in Russia .

Dozens of new craters suspected in northern Russia

Maybe it ads up to your thread..

I have to 2nd that opinion. It used to be strange things occurred once in a while, but in the past few years it's been off the hook. Two years ago when I first started writing about the methane gas and tried associating everything with it, the biggest argument skeptics made was that none of these phenomenon were actually increasing, but now, it's pretty hard to argue against the fact that volcanoes, earthquakes, sinkholes, fireballs, disease outbreaks, loud booms, extreme weather events, unexplained explosions and fires, mass animal die-offs are actually increasing in frequency and intensity.

And it's not just coincidental that all these events increased in the few years after atmospheric methane levels started rapidly increasing in 2007.

a reply to: Rezlooper

I have a question, after we have died off from the crazy methane levels, does some or all of that methane dissipate into space slowly ??

Or somehow over time sink back to earth and get trapped under ice again.

The question should be, why is their all this methane, how did it get trapped.. and is it a never ending cycle of trapped, un-trapped, trapped, un-trapped, cold, hot , cold , hot.

a reply to: Rezlooper

I do think you got a real scientific point here , But we only have the power to repeat it on forums like this . You know as I know that if we shout it from the rooftops we end up somewhere in between.

I for instance see the connections you talk about, hell its so convenient if its not extraterrestrial and we have to look the more logical ways , the methane comes the closest IMO..

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Rezlooper

I have a question, after we have died off from the crazy methane levels, does some or all of that methane dissipate into space slowly ??

Or somehow over time sink back to earth and get trapped under ice again.

The question should be, why is their all this methane, how did it get trapped.. and is it a never ending cycle of trapped, un-trapped, trapped, un-trapped, cold, hot , cold , hot.

Methane will eventually dissipate in the atmosphere. A methane molecule has a lifespan of about 9 years. Methane is normally mitigated in the atmosphere by the chemical OH, or hydroxl radical, which keeps the methane levels down, but what happens is more and more methane release overwhelms the OH, as well as the increasing levels of hydrogen sulfide which also eats away at the OH, so methane thrives instead. Methane also converts into CO2, which will maintain a warm planet for years to come. Eventually, GHG levels will return to livable levels but it may be thousands of years.

originally posted by: 0bserver1
a reply to: Rezlooper

I do think you got a real scientific point here , But we only have the power to repeat it on forums like this . You know as I know that if we shout it from the rooftops we end up somewhere in between.

I for instance see the connections you talk about, hell its so convenient if its not extraterrestrial and we have to look the more logical ways , the methane comes the closest IMO..

That's the approach I've taken over these past couple of years...something is off, way way off right now on our planet and what makes the most sense?