First time reading the Quran, My impression

I must have hit a raw nerve with my question why God didn't pick up a pen to write the Bible or Qur'an. Nobody responded … lol.

originally posted by: AllIsOne
I must have hit a raw nerve with my question why God didn't pick up a pen to write the Bible or Qur'an. Nobody responded … lol.

If you didn't get a response, it must mean that nerve is dead, not raw...LOL.

Maybe you are not aware of the doctrine of inspiration, that God inspired all the writers of the books of the Bible to write as they did, to say what they did. Some believe that God only gave men the ideas to write down, but I propose that every word, every letter, is inspired by God. This is evidenced by the highly structured mathematical codes found in the text by Ivan Panin. They are far too complex to have been produced by a merely human mind. Panin proposed, in turn, that the original text of the Bible could be perfectly restored by mathematics.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
That's simply not accurate.

Muslims worship the One God alone without three manifestations. Christians worship the Holy Trinity which is One God but three manifestations - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christians worship Jesus as God incarnate - separate and yet part of the One God. Show me a muslim who worships Jesus as God incarnate and I'll show you a Muslim who worships the same God as Christians.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

If the line of reasoning you propose is the legitimate way of determining whether or not a God is the same as the Christian God, then no one ever believed in the Christian God until less than 2,000 years ago...and any of the earliest Christians weren't actually Christian...

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: Created

Now with that stated Christ himself did not speak on slavery..

Wait what? lol

Some of the verses I posted were Christ's words. Alleged words, but still.

Yes a "parable". As Christ say he is master and yet served like a servant while on earth. Thus nulling his master authority while our example in life. This is what he expects all kings, presidents, and powers that be should behave. Servants are masters and masters are servants. As our example while on Earth. He that humbles himself shall be praised by God but he that praises himself shall be humbled by God.

originally posted by: TheJourney
If the line of reasoning you propose is the legitimate way of determining whether or not a God is the same as the Christian God, then no one ever believed in the Christian God until less than 2,000 years ago...

“My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) The earliest Christians believed Jesus is God incarnate. The Jews do not believe in a Triune God. Neither do the Muslims. But the Christians do. These are different gods.

Show me a Muslim who bends the knee at worships Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God, and you'll see a Muslim who worships the same triune God as the Christians.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: TheJourney
If the line of reasoning you propose is the legitimate way of determining whether or not a God is the same as the Christian God, then no one ever believed in the Christian God until less than 2,000 years ago...

“My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) The earliest Christians believed Jesus is God incarnate. The Jews do not believe in a Triune God. Neither do the Muslims. But the Christians do. These are different gods.

Show me a Muslim who bends the knee at worships Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God, and you'll see a Muslim who worships the same triune God as the Christians.

So, again, the Christian god came onto the scene 2,000 or less years ago? And if you think all the early Christians believed Jesus was god incarnate, it would seem you don't know too much about early Christian history...there was much diversity among early Christians, unification wasn't even attempted until centuries later. But, please don't ignore my first question to answer the rest of what I said...to repeat, the Christian god came onto the scene 2,000 or less years ago, then?

originally posted by: TheJourney
it would seem you don't know too much about early Christian history..

I know it just fine. I had to study it for 20 years while I was in Third Orders.

to repeat, the Christian god came onto the scene 2,000 or less years ago, then?

to repeat, show me a muslim worshipping a triune God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and I'll show you a muslim who worships the same God as Christians.

The Christian triune God was not heard of before 2,000 years ago. The Hebrews did not worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit and therefore they worshipped a different god. Show me a Hebrew from 3,000 years ago who worshipped Jesus as God, and I'll show you a Hebrew who worshipped the same God as Christians.

Very simple.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: AllIsOne
I must have hit a raw nerve with my question why God didn't pick up a pen to write the Bible or Qur'an. Nobody responded … lol.

If you didn't get a response, it must mean that nerve is dead, not raw...LOL.

Maybe you are not aware of the doctrine of inspiration, that God inspired all the writers of the books of the Bible to write as they did, to say what they did. Some believe that God only gave men the ideas to write down, but I propose that every word, every letter, is inspired by God. This is evidenced by the highly structured mathematical codes found in the text by Ivan Panin. They are far too complex to have been produced by a merely human mind. Panin proposed, in turn, that the original text of the Bible could be perfectly restored by mathematics.

I'm very aware of all kinds of Apologists when it comes to "holy" books. My simple question remains: why would a supreme being leave the job to humans and not do it him/herself … ?

I don't know what kind of work you do, but when it comes to the really important stuff it's usually the boss who does it and not the apprentice.

a reply to: AllIsOne

The real question is, why do you presume to possess the same level of understanding as a supreme being (which may or may not exist)?

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: AllIsOne

The real question is, why do you presume to possess the same level of understanding as a supreme being (which may or may not exist)?

Because I've played the telephone game before and it never gives you an accurate representation of what went in in the beginning.

BTW: typical Apologist move. God knows better … lol.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: TheJourney
it would seem you don't know too much about early Christian history..

I know it just fine. I had to study it for 20 years while I was in Third Orders.

to repeat, the Christian god came onto the scene 2,000 or less years ago, then?

to repeat, show me a muslim worshipping a triune God of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and I'll show you a muslim who worships the same God as Christians.

The Christian triune God was not heard of before 2,000 years ago. The Hebrews did not worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit and therefore they worshipped a different god. Show me a Hebrew from 3,000 years ago who worshipped Jesus as God, and I'll show you a Hebrew who worshipped the same God as Christians.

Very simple.

So, people were all wrong about God for 99% of human history? Only for 1% of human history was there even the potential to have the right idea about god? So do you not need to know God in the right way to go to heaven, or were all humans destined for hell for 99% of human history?

originally posted by: TheJourney
So, people were all wrong about God for 99% of human history?

Who says they are right now?
The question was - is it the same god?
The answer is no, Muslims don't have a triune god and Christians do.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: TheJourney
So, people were all wrong about God for 99% of human history?

Who says they are right now?
The question was - is it the same god?
The answer is no, Muslims don't have a triune god and Christians do.

Well, if you're saying a non triune god is inherently a different god, than all of the Hebrews prior to Jesus worshipped the wrong god. Which you already said. But that means that over half of the bible was written by people who worshipped a false, or different, God. Which cuts away the foundation of Christianity. Which really disproves Christianity, because it supposedly has it's foundation in the God of the Hebrews, but since that is a different god it isn't actually a foundation for Jesus' God. Which therefore disproves Jesus' God, since it is all purported to be a continuation and fulfillment of the older system.

originally posted by: TheJourney
Well, if you're saying a non triune god is inherently a different god, than all of the Hebrews prior to Jesus worshipped the wrong god.

'Wrong god'?? I never said that. I said DIFFERENT god. Who is to say which people, if any, have the 'right' God?

that means that over half of the bible was written by people who worshipped a false, or different, God.

The O.T. if full of crap. But that's for another topic.


The topic is impressions upon reading the Qu'ran.
I have stated my impression - it's full of errors and easily debunked.
(Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, Exodus, Abraham stories, etc)
Not much else to say.

originally posted by: AllIsOne
I'm very aware of all kinds of Apologists when it comes to "holy" books. My simple question remains: why would a supreme being leave the job to humans and not do it him/herself … ?

I don't know what kind of work you do, but when it comes to the really important stuff it's usually the boss who does it and not the apprentice.

All I can say in the way of a simple answer to your simple question is that it pleased God to inspire and instruct His chosen men to write certain things. It seems from your wording that you agree that God is a "supreme being," so you must accept it - your failure to understand (no, I don't fully understand it myself) does not change the facts of the matter. So, if God is a supreme being/boss, does not the boss communicate clearly to his apprentice, that is, if he's a good boss? Then how do you explain God's apparent failure to lay it all out for us very clearly from the beginning? His core message seems to be buried in hundreds of pages of history, prophecy, complaints about sins, and so on and so on. Ever think about that?

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: TheJourney
Well, if you're saying a non triune god is inherently a different god, than all of the Hebrews prior to Jesus worshipped the wrong god.

'Wrong god'?? I never said that. I said DIFFERENT god. Who is to say which people, if any, have the 'right' God?

that means that over half of the bible was written by people who worshipped a false, or different, God.

The O.T. if full of crap. But that's for another topic.


The topic is impressions upon reading the Qu'ran.
I have stated my impression - it's full of errors and easily debunked.
(Adam and Eve, Noahs Ark, Exodus, Abraham stories, etc)
Not much else to say.

Oh, wow, so how is a different god different from a wrong god?

I agree with you on the Qu'ran and the Muslims. However, your statement (I believe in another post) that the Hebrews worshipped a different (wrong?) god is not right. See my post on the last page of this thread. It very clear to me that the God of the Old Testament, who gave His name to Moses at the burning bush as "YHVH," meaning "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail," is none other than Jesus the Christ. Yes, Jesus, the God of the O.T.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: AllIsOne
I'm very aware of all kinds of Apologists when it comes to "holy" books. My simple question remains: why would a supreme being leave the job to humans and not do it him/herself … ?

I don't know what kind of work you do, but when it comes to the really important stuff it's usually the boss who does it and not the apprentice.

All I can say in the way of a simple answer to your simple question is that it pleased God to inspire and instruct His chosen men to write certain things.

Ah, now YOU know the feelings of a supreme being. Before you accused me of assuming to know. Apologists have never been best friends with logic and coherent thought. The plot thickens … lol.

It seems from your wording that you agree that God is a "supreme being," so you must accept it - your failure to understand (no, I don't fully understand it myself) does not change the facts of the matter.

What fact? Do you mean a bunch of men (always men …) got stoned, started hallucinating and wrote down the word of God. That fact???

So, if God is a supreme being/boss, does not the boss communicate clearly to his apprentice, that is, if he's a good boss? Then how do you explain God's apparent failure to lay it all out for us very clearly from the beginning? His core message seems to be buried in hundreds of pages of history, prophecy, complaints about sins, and so on and so on. Ever think about that?

Not sure what point you're trying to make. Your argument seems to help what I'm saying!

a reply to: FlyersFan

You could not be further from the truth. I am glad that many Muslims around the world take the time to truly study the bible and all available scriptures, versions and so on in order to have a meaningful religious debate based on the correct interpretations. You are cherry picking negative verses from the Quran, and contrasting them with peaceful things said by Jesus.

If you took the time out of your day to study the Quran in depth before posting in threads like these, you would not sound so ignorant.

Islam has the strongest verses on peace that exists in any scripture.

“…whosoever killeth a human being… it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind…”

And if you bothered to understand more about Islam you would understand that obviously Muslims cannot claim a religion that only started 1400 years ago to be the one and only final religion. Where is the logic in that?

Muslims claim that Islam was there from time immemorial. There are no other religions except one, and there is only one god. Humans followed the practices of Islam (submission to god) since the beginning, new revelations were sent down to mankind since the beginning, as society grew more complex. Islam today is the last of those revelations, given that the previous one's that we know about in our current recorded history — the Gospel and the Torah — were corrupted, changed by man to suit his own needs. Believe what you will - I am simply correcting you on the claims put forward by Muslims and Islam today, there is no point discussing faith and beliefs at this point. So do not make your own assumptions that Islam reaches backwards to claim anything as its own, educate yourself first. On another note, Jesus is highly regarded in Islam, you make it sound like he is not even acknowledged- again please educate yourself.

Also, there are many comprehensive debates on YouTube that will enlighten you on why Muslims cannot possibly believe that Jesus was god, simply by going through all verses in bible scripture and where logic just doesn't back it up.


Furthermore, it's a misconception that Islam means peace and, and it is argued that verses inside the Quran contradict this. Islam does not mean peace, translated it means surrender or submission - to what? To God. Life on a whole is not peaceful and it never has been, and it never will be. Do not fool yourself and pretend that all is hunky dory - we don't need rules, and we don't need guidelines. Humans by nature have the ability to be evil and cruel, or peaceful and compassionate. Islam is preached by Muslims to be a method of going from one side of the spectrum to the other, in the direction of peace. And that requires some tough rules, for good reason. You talk about stoning to death, but you quote entirely out of context - you do not even mention the conditions for punishment of adultery (you need a few witnesses). Not everything in the Quran will go down well with you, but neither does everything life throws in your direction. At least the Quran has a guideline for dealing with life and its many troubles. If those rules were followed today by most, imagine how many problems would go away. Interest on loans? abolished - that's the end of debt once and for all. Pre-marital sex? Abolished, that the end of all the troubles we have today with sex education now starting at primary school due to the outbreak of kids doing it for fun and ending up having kids of their own. Poor people? No more, Islam makes it a law for everyones who has the means to pay zakat (charity) as a proportion of an individuals wealth to spread the wealth amognst everyone else.

So please tell me how any of this does NOT serve mankind well? Last I checked the 1% own half of the worlds wealth, and it wasn't a law to give charity. If the rich paid 2.5% of their wealth to the poor, I think the world would be a better place.


Sorry for the long post.

a reply to: AllIsOne

Because that would defeat the entire point of religion - to have and to exercise faith.