What is Freemasonry? One Mason to another...

originally posted by: Saurus

originally posted by: Tangerine

So absolutely nothing is said in Masonry about God? God is not referred to in any context at all?

God is referred to often, but is called "The Great Architect of the Universe" and it is understood by each Mason present that this is referring to the God that each individual Mason believes in.

The rituals, however, refer to the Abrahamic God.

Can you give an example of those values?

For instance, one section of our First Degree Working Tools refer to how to spend our day - part serving God, part serving others and part improving ourselves. This is just one small example.

When you say that you think women are kept out to avoid distractions, that's the argument that was given for not allowing women in combat. It was also the argument used to keep military units racially segregated. It's still the argument used to keep gays closeted (don't ask/don't tell). Don't you think that's a rather backward position? You talk about values and an unshakeable value system. That suggests to me that part of this unshakeable value system is the inequality and exclusion of women and the notion that women have nothing of value to contribute to understanding the mysteries and the "real truth". Considering this Masonic value system, how do you justify that?

Fair enough. There are many who feel that, since times have changed, Masonry has become outdated in its ideas. It is one of the reasons why Masonry is becoming less popular. I, for one, think that in this day of educated women, they could greatly benefit from Freemasonry.

I will not argue against you on this point, since I cannot.

Still, the social Brotherhood aspect is also important, and it is useful to be able to have social discussions with people of our own gender, where one tends to be less inhibited. A Brotherhood still certainly have its merits.

Thank you for your honest answers. It would seem, then, that atheists, Hindus, pagans, etc. would not feel comfortable as Masons. Do you agree?

Are you given sources for the values that are taught? For example, are philosophers or schools of philosophy named? Is anything put into a historical context?

You mentioned that women might benefit from Masonry. Perhaps Masonry would benefit from women. After all, if you're seeking wisdom and truth via the mysteries, omitting the wisdom and truth and values of half of humanity seems to ensure that you're only getting half of the picture. Have you ever discussed this with other Masons?

You mentioned being less inhibited discussing Masonic things with other men. What is it that Masons discuss during meetings that would cause them to be inhibited in the presence of women?

a reply to: Tangerine
You have to look at the foundation in order to see how the house was built, the core belief is sufism, and yes this is written in books and yes you will discover truth by reading and looking at history.

The greatest writers of modern freemasonry and some not so great have given very useful insight, have you ever bothered to research or read them ? many of the texts that I have access to were written long before it was imagined they could fall into the hands of the general public.

I don't assume anything, I read and I am very educated on the subject of ancient freemasonry, how modern freemasonry evolved, and also am aware of the many errors that have been propagated about the ancient craft of freemasonry.

But more importantly I am aware of how the craft is truly utilized today and who benefits from it and most importantly what the ultimate goals are.

originally posted by: Tangerine

Thank you for your honest answers. It would seem, then, that atheists, Hindus, pagans, etc. would not feel comfortable as Masons. Do you agree?

There are Hindus and at least one Pagan in my lodge. The qualifier is if you believe in a Supreme Being, after speaking with one of the Hindus he explained the concept of avatars which he felt covered this requirement.

Are you given sources for the values that are taught? For example, are philosophers or schools of philosophy named? Is anything put into a historical context?

There are some obscure references from the Bible but the main symbolic exemplar is that our lodges are supposed to be representations of King Solomon's Temple which is where much of the symbolism is derived along with the Hiram Abiff legend.

You mentioned that women might benefit from Masonry. Perhaps Masonry would benefit from women. After all, if you're seeking wisdom and truth via the mysteries, omitting the wisdom and truth and values of half of humanity seems to ensure that you're only getting half of the picture. Have you ever discussed this with other Masons?

There are co-ed lodges which allow women, mine does not. I would prefer to have some time 'just with the guys' and my wife is cool with that.

originally posted by: phinubian

But more importantly I am aware of how the craft is truly utilized today and who benefits from it and most importantly what the ultimate goals are.

Who benefits and what are the ultimate goals?

originally posted by: Tangerine

Thank you for your honest answers. It would seem, then, that atheists, Hindus, pagans, etc. would not feel comfortable as Masons. Do you agree?

I am pantheistic, and probably more pagan than Christian. I am extremely comfortable with Freemasonry. However, I am less comfortable with the "Higher Degrees", which came much later, and which, in the English Constitution are very Christian in nature. I do know however, that this is not the case in American "Higher Degrees."

Are you given sources for the values that are taught? For example, are philosophers or schools of philosophy named? Is anything put into a historical context?

No. No sources are given, except the Volume of Sacred Law, that Holy book which each individual Mason sees as his own "Holy Book".

You mentioned that women might benefit from Masonry. Perhaps Masonry would benefit from women. After all, if you're seeking wisdom and truth via the mysteries, omitting the wisdom and truth and values of half of humanity seems to ensure that you're only getting half of the picture. Have you ever discussed this with other Masons?

Many Masons agree with you, and have formed "irregular" Lodges called co-Masonry which allow women, but teach the same thing.

You mentioned being less inhibited discussing Masonic things with other men. What is it that Masons discuss during meetings that would cause them to be inhibited in the presence of women?

Man-to-man talk about personal matters, similar to the way a woman might discuss her husband with her female friends, for example.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Tangerine

Thank you for your honest answers. It would seem, then, that atheists, Hindus, pagans, etc. would not feel comfortable as Masons. Do you agree?

There are Hindus and at least one Pagan in my lodge. The qualifier is if you believe in a Supreme Being, after speaking with one of the Hindus he explained the concept of avatars which he felt covered this requirement.

Are you given sources for the values that are taught? For example, are philosophers or schools of philosophy named? Is anything put into a historical context?

There are some obscure references from the Bible but the main symbolic exemplar is that our lodges are supposed to be representations of King Solomon's Temple which is where much of the symbolism is derived along with the Hiram Abiff legend.

You mentioned that women might benefit from Masonry. Perhaps Masonry would benefit from women. After all, if you're seeking wisdom and truth via the mysteries, omitting the wisdom and truth and values of half of humanity seems to ensure that you're only getting half of the picture. Have you ever discussed this with other Masons?

There are co-ed lodges which allow women, mine does not. I would prefer to have some time 'just with the guys' and my wife is cool with that.

I have a friend who is a Master Mason and he's a pagan. He says there's another pagan in his lodge but they both feel that they would be unwelcome if the others knew. How do the other Masons in your lodge deal with the Hindu and pagan(s)?

I have no problem with men or women spending time with people of their own gender. The point I was making was that if one is a Mason to search for "the truth" or some such, by default you're really just getting the Old White Boy's "truth". It seems to me that if one wants to learn and experience one looks outside one's comfort and experience zone. Do you agree?

This is a very interesting conversation and I'd like to continue. However, I have to be away from the computer for a few hours. I'll return.

originally posted by: Tangerine

I have a friend who is a Master Mason and he's a pagan. He says there's another pagan in his lodge but they both feel that they would be unwelcome if the other's knew. How do the other Masons in your lodge deal with the Hindu and pagan(s)?

Just fine, otherwise they would not have been voted in. Our method of allowing new members is to invite them to several dinners or non-lodge meetings to meet some of the Brothers and decide whether they want to join or not.

I have no problem with men or women spending time with people of their own gender. The point I was making was that if one is a Mason to search for "the truth" or some such, by default you're really just getting the Old White Boy's "truth". It seems to me that if one wants to learn and experience one looks outside one's comfort and experience zone. Do you agree?

No, because my lodge is not just 'old white boys'. We also do many activities revolving around the esoteric so I feel we are getting many new experiences.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You know the answer, and if you don't then ignorance is bliss, hint, it should be on the tip of your index finger
seek and ye shall find.

a reply to: Saurus

I've read a bit of the constitutions and most of it is not what you'd expect and it is not as bad what the conspiracy theorists would have you believe.

From my understanding it's a gathering of like-minded men who contribute to society in their own discreet way while maintaining their rituals-and I don't mean the bad kind of rituals.

However the constitutions do mention 'stupid atheists' so I'm guessing only a man of god could become a member.

originally posted by: Tangerine
I have a friend who is a Master Mason and he's a pagan. He says there's another pagan in his lodge but they both feel that they would be unwelcome if the others knew. How do the other Masons in your lodge deal with the Hindu and pagan(s)?

The belief isn't up to the lodge to judge. It's the individual mason who decides his relationship with the creator.
But......masons are men. Men are susceptible to social bias and ignorance. So while the precept of freemasonry go directly against racism, there can be racist masons. And while a pagan mason is no less a mason than a Baptist preacher, those who haven't tried to understand other beliefs, out of ignorance, might denounce something they don't understand. (human nature)

a reply to: Saurus
I was always taught that it was forbidden to recruit members...I joined (and asked if I could join) because I saw the charity work the Masons were doing and I wanted to be part of that...

It was interesting that I didn't know any Masons but yet I knew a lot of Masons...It's supposed to be a secretive organization so I get irritated when I see a Mason wearing a Mason ring...

There seems to be an area of Masonry that I never got into...A spiritual aspect that I am not interested in...I guess that's why I moved away from Masonry...The more Christian I became, the less Masonry appealed to me...

a reply to: phinubian

Why the need to play coy and not answer a pretty simple question?

Who benefits and what is the goal?

It is not a secret organisation. It is an organisation with secrets.

It was quite the opposite for me. The more christian my lodge became, the less interested i became. For me masonry showed me that i was already on the right path. And that people make the organization instead of an organization making the people. Had i been around a better group of masons, i prob would have stayed interested.


a reply to: Iscool

The goal is to make men better. As far as who benefits? If a community has more productive and trustworthy individuals, then the whole community benefits.


a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Why the need to play coy and not answer a pretty simple question?

Who benefits and what is the goal?

I recommend reading some pages of the constitutions first. I am not a member but I've read enough to believe that the freemasons do have some honest intentions despite the shroud of secrecy.

originally posted by: Iscool
There seems to be an area of Masonry that I never got into...A spiritual aspect that I am not interested in...I guess that's why I moved away from Masonry...The more Christian I became, the less Masonry appealed to me...

If you became more "Christian", didn't you do exactly that? Explore the spiritual aspects?
Masonry isn't replacing your religion, it's helping you grow within your religion/or beliefs.

Do you feel the lessons you learned are in any way not aligned with your faith?

a reply to: Saurus

My grandfather was one and I have been given a few chances to join but politely refused. Not sure which degree you are at. It is relevantly easy to reach 32 degree. Beyond that to 33rd degree requires a political connection from what I see.It is at this level you find out what god you are worshipping...... which is Lucifer. My main reason for not wanting to join the ranks of the mason.

a reply to: Thecakeisalie

I am pretty well versed with the Constitution of my jurisdiction.

I wanted this poster to answer me in his own words.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
... which is Lucifer.

Here we go again.