Christians, are violent old testament verses relevant to your beliefs today?

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: WarminIndy

He might not know about it. He seems to have a disdain for learning about ugly things.

nope I have a disdain for the sick violent verses in the bible in your so called "holy bible".

But I guess you think genocide is okay as long as its "Biblical".

Well, since I have learned about the genocides committed by the Nazis, the Ottoman-Turks, the ethnic cleansings carried out in Bosnia area and Rwanda/Tsutsi conflict not to mention what Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot did as well as events that happened during the conflicts with the Native Americans ... I must just be a big fan of genocide in general.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: WarminIndy

He might not know about it. He seems to have a disdain for learning about ugly things.

nope I have a disdain for the sick violent verses in the bible in your so called "holy bible".

But I guess you think genocide is okay as long as its "Biblical".

Well, since I have learned about the genocides committed by the Nazis, the Ottoman-Turks, the ethnic cleansings carried out in Bosnia area and Rwanda/Tsutsi conflict not to mention what Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot did as well as events that happened during the conflicts with the Native Americans ... I must just be a big fan of genocide in general.

You are smart enough to know that the genocides you mentioned are evil.

So why do you not admit that the genocides mentioned in the Bible are evil, instead of constantly justifying it just because you think God supposedly ordered it?

a reply to: rokkuman

I never justified it though. I said they were there because we use the OT as a learning tool.

So since you think we should purge them, NO MATTER WHY THEY ARE THERE, have you purged your own history yet?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: rokkuman

I never justified it though. I said they were there because we use the OT as a learning tool.

So have you condemned them as barbaric?

No? Why not?

And a "learning tool" for what?

a reply to: rokkuman

*sigh* This is annoyingly circular. Go back and read some of the posts on the subject. There were many. You must be ignoring them.

Have you purged the history you learn yet?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: rokkuman

*sigh* This is annoyingly circular. Go back and read some of the posts on the subject. There were many. You must be ignoring them.

Have you purged the history you learn yet?

We are not arguing history. You don't see the Bible as a mere history book do you?

But if you insist we compare the bible to secular history I'm all for it, because the bible is basically secular history wrapped in "religious" paper. i.e. people carried out genocide and said God told them to do so. Sits well with me. Agree?

Op how about you tell me about some of the things you believe. I have answered your questions and you have ignored the answers. What part of your beliefs make you want to remain ignorrant on a topic after it has been explained? What do you hope to gain by creating such threads and ignoring the answers.

Do you have a goal in mind?

a reply to: ketsuko

*sigh* This is annoyingly circular.

You must mean the circular logic;
"The Bible says everything God does is good, if God did it in the Bible, it's Good, The Bible is God's word, If the Bible says it, it's true."?

As long as Christians defend the incidents of genocide committed under the orders of their God in the Old Testament, while condemning the actions of non-Christians, it's a valid discussion, in my opinion.

OP, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get one or more of us to denounce God for whatever reason.

I get that you hate Him, and that's your choice. However, it is disingenuous to try to get others to denounce Him in the manner you are attempting.

So let's stop playing this game, yes?

originally posted by: ketsuko
OP, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to get one or more of us to denounce God for whatever reason.

I get that you hate Him, and that's your choice. However, it is disingenuous to try to get others to denounce Him in the manner you are attempting.

So let's stop playing this game, yes?

Not playing any games. I am asking a serious question.

I am not even asking you to denounce God, I just want to know if you condemn the violence recorded in the bible? Yes or no?

I've asked it many times here at ATS,

Why serve a God that at any point in time, commanded and approved of even half of the things the Christian God did/does? I guarantee most of you reading this have higher moral standards than this alleged God! I even made a thread about it! As may be imagined, many of the people who participated in that thread defended and justified their God's actions.

Why is it that when someone questions the bible Christians automatically believe that means they hate God?

Is it manipulation or just stupidity?

Someone help me understand

a reply to: Akragon

LOL so true.

It's like their defense mechanism to instantly see us as satanic and thus ignore what we say. Just a guess.

originally posted by: Akragon
Why is it that when someone questions the bible Christians automatically believe that means they hate God?

Is it manipulation or just stupidity?

Someone help me understand

Because you must believe in god, and you must believe in god their way, or you're eternally damned. Even though you believe in god, you're still just as much of a heathen as I am to them.

a reply to: Akragon

Honestly, I believe it has something to do with the first guy to question God's authority. Satan. From many of their perspectives everyone knows God exists, even if it's on a subconscious level. Knowing that God exists and loves us, how can anyone reject him? They will attribute it to a desire to sin, or think we don't want to be accountable.. or any number of reasons I'm sure you've heard before. At any rate, haters gonna hate!

Personally I don't hate God. As you know I am an atheist. How can I hate what I don't believe exists? If he does exist and is as the entire Bible makes him out to be than sure, perhaps I would use words such as hate. I would choose not to worship him because almost everything he stands for I despise. Not because I "want to sin" or the like...

Honestly I much prefer yours and a few other posters view on the whole subject.

Edit: I also think they got the whole Satan thing mixed up and deified.

a reply to: rokkuman

1. So now tell me, are violent old testament verses relevant to your belief as a Christian today? 2. if not, why haven't you purged your bible of the disgusting violent verses that have no place in the 21st century? Thats all I want to know.

One person cannot speak for all people in any one particular matter. The NT is a transition from one covenant to another covenant. All lawful matters of the Sinai convention are also taught by Christ Jesus but the penalties of those same laws have been relaxed in some advanced cultures. Thou shalt commit no murder is the same law from Adam to Christ Jesus but mercy has been instituted as our cultures have progressed.

If one culture lives by the sword then it will die by the sword. If another culture learns love then the penalties will show less punishment and more mercy. The Germany or Japan of 75 years ago cannot be compared as like minded in this age. Even the United States cannot be compared to likeness of 75 years ago. Then why would the Hebrews or for that matter any people of four or five thousand years ago be compared in such likeness?

As you read the Hebrew scriptures you will read countless times that God has made agreements with certain people at certain times and also included warnings of not abiding to those agreements. Now what transpired at the covenant of Moses has nothing binding to the covenant of Christ Jesus. Two entirely different eras with different peoples and different covenants.

Are the Hebrew scriptures relevant to our teachings today as Christians? Absolutely they are relevant. They are the history that evolved into Christianity just the same as the civil war is the history that evolved into the United States of North America. No you cannot see the truth by purging either of the two. Why should they be purged? We today are not accountable for the sins of our fathers. That would be senseless and literary insanity.

There are many disgusting and vile events and happenings and practices in this history of America as well as present day America. Should we purge all of this and it you believe so then tell me how would you do this purging? Burn books? Mind control? Blood baths? In all of written history those very things have been tried many times over with no success.

As far as atrocities are concerned the very same people who challenge the Hebrew God of thousands of years ago will bite the bit and remain silent as we in this modern United States murder people by the millions each year. Over 700 little people are murdered just in this country every day of the week. But let's not blame us. Oh heavens no. Lets just blame God for allowing us to murder 700 little ones each day. Put the blame on God who gave us the free will to build our baby factories of death. That clears the mind doesn't it? Lets put a nice name on it and call it pro choice and then bash the nasty ole God of Abraham for allowing all of that suffering that people were responsible for. Enough said --

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: darkwingduck
a reply to: rokkuman

Not really... Hence the words "Old Testament", and "New Testament". I guess you could say it would be like comparing the values and beliefs of the Democratic party of 150 years ago here in the United States to the current crop of Democrats.

apples and oranges because politics isn't the same as religion. Politics evolves to catch up with existing social values but apparently religion is retains everything from the past.

Or do christians not consider the ultra-violent old testament to be part of their faith?

How exactly is a prayer calling for dashing the enemies baby against a rock even relevant to christianity today? If it isn't then why are they holding on to violent verses in their books?

Isn't it time to purge the Bible of its violence?

You were answered. Christians follow Christ and His message and example as the Spirit of Peace and Love ONLY. That is why they are Christians. The Old Testament is about historically placing the events.

And they are the instrumental force behind the creation of democracies, social programs and equality and human rights which is why TPTB hate Christianity and middle class. And if they actually created the religions then they are thumping themselves over the head at actually giving a story that resembles the inner gnostic messages in the metaphors hidden in the old testament, which by the way are not a story of murder and smiting, but in the gnosis, its all Christ and How to Ascend and Achieve Higher Mind. Joseph and the coat of many colors, and even Abraham and Isaac are all Christ stories.

www.spiritofthescripture.com...
Joseph, the Coat of Many Colors, and Egypt: The Ultimate Story of Ascension
by Joshua Tilghman on December 27, 2012

For example, and

www.spiritofthescripture.com...

Why Did God Ask Abraham to Sacrifice Isaac?

by Joshua Tilghman on November 13, 2013

Most Christian theologians believe that this story foreshadows the coming of Jesus who would take the place of humanity on the cross. The central theme of this Old Testament story then becomes the great faith of Abraham in knowing that God will provide the sacrifice. This is a wonderful way of viewing the story, but I want us to see the more correct way of understanding it. The truth is, the two stories of Abraham being asked to sacrifice Isaac and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross are actually one and the same. Abraham and Isaac’s story isn’t so much of a foreshadowing of Jesus’ sacrifice as it is the same story being told again! What’s even more is the fact that both of these stories and the characters involved are telling YOUR story as well! Remember, each Biblical story brings us closer to the truth within us (the nature of the Christ) when we apply them to ourselves instead of thinking they are about someone else in another time and place.

a reply to: Unity_99

Answer honestly.

If you truly believed God was asking you to sacrifice your child, or a loved one, would you do it?

a reply to: Unity_99

Can you please elaborate on how the OT is "not a story of murder and smiting, but in the gnosis, its all Christ and How to Ascend and Achieve Higher Mind." what with by God's own commandments he orders the executions of people over petty crimes, approves of rape via captive war wives, approves of slavery and had rules for it.. How are ordered genocides for his chosen people metaphors and what for?

a reply to: rokkuman
That idea form "Christianity" underwent a 'reformation' and in so doing threw out several NEGATIVE things; can you guess what they were?