Christians, are violent old testament verses relevant to your beliefs today?

a reply to: orangetom1999

why do you bother quoting my op if you arent interested in addressing any of the points made?
your post was a long rant that has nothing to do with the op.

All I am asking for is for christians to at least admit that old testament violence was a bad thing, but all Ive seen so far are christians trying to justify old testament violence.

Black and white television existed before colour, does that mean i must always watch black and white movies because it happened in the past?
It's relevance? a reminder of how things were before. We killed for what we needed for lack of alterior means. Today i dont have to kill to eat, there are shops for that (progress, New Testament if you will).

Violence is not the bibles fualt, it is us humans who kill humans. We then catalog these events in writings in order to remember those whoe died and to prevent it happening again.

These writings then evolve as man's philosophy changes and new methods of resolving differences are created.

The older writings are still relevant as a tool for comparing methods, but the new writings are more evolved, refined and adapted to current times and needs.

Not sure if this makes sense to any of you, im kinda struggling to put thoughts to words here lol.

a reply to: rokkuman

The way I see it...the Old Testament is kind of a historical account of how bad things were in many regards before Christ came in an attempt to clarify matters.

Even then, Christs message fell on deaf ears to the powers that ruled back in the day. It's an interesting account and powerful storytelling if viewed as an allegory rather than just focusing on historical "fact" and overindulging in literal interpretations.

A lot of folks get so caught up in the written WORD that they completely fail to see the MESSAGE. Love one another. Be kind. Be gentle. Help one another. It's not that hard a concept to grasp, but some people like making mountains out of molehills. Reading between the lines is an art form.

As the Zen Masters might say : "We're pointing at the moon, but all they are seeing is our fingers."

It's sad. Infinitely sad. There are still people today who claim the Lord as their Savior, but continue to commit the most heinous atrocities completely contrary to Christs message of peace, love and charity. It's baffling to me how some use scripture to justify their atrocious actions. With that behavior, they are not true Christian - they are acting like Pharisees.

So, to answer your original question:

For me personally the Old Testament is not relevant to my Christian practice. It is relevant to my studies, but I certainly don't let the brutal lessons of the past override the message of Christ in the New Testament.

originally posted by: rokkuman
a reply to: orangetom1999

why do you bother quoting my op if you arent interested in addressing any of the points made?
your post was a long rant that has nothing to do with the op.

All I am asking for is for christians to at least admit that old testament violence was a bad thing, but all Ive seen so far are christians trying to justify old testament violence.

Good grief rokkuman,

Do you even have a clue what the nations surrounding Ancient Israel were doing in their religions and why the God of Israel instructed them to not do as these nations were doing. Do you even have a clue what the nations were doing in the land the Children of Israel were told to conquer in their religions.

You want to talk about violence. Yet you put it all off on the God of the Olde Testament. Astonishing!!

Many of these nations surrounding ancient Israel...were passing their first born through the fires of Molec...sacrificing them to the god of the hot bronze statue with a fire buring inside it. Rolling their still living children into this red hot cauldron.

The Moabites and their god Kemish...sacrificing their children after drugging them up and holding up the still beating hearts of their children up before their god/gods.

This is the reason among many other reasons that God told the Children of Israel..to not do as these nations were doing and in some cases to spare none..not even the cattle. For the land was so defiled by these people and their religions.
You totally avoid this history and try to put the onus off on the God of the Olde Testament for being violent. Astonishing!!

Your entire post as an OP ..as is the case with many unbelievers..is based on not many people knowing any history. And you would be correct in this even among believers ..for many ministers today paint the picture of the pretties...how everything was lovely..and beautiful. It was not so in OLde Testament times and in the middle east. In addition to trying to scratch out a living ..one had to worry about how to keep ones head on ones shoulders..not just for believers..but for non believers as well. Yet you describe none of this.

There is a passage in the olde testament..about the other religions and one of the indexes and fingerprints of how to know or detect this other religion taking place ..is.."For they have filled the land with violence."
There are descriptions of cities not being safe because they were running chariots down the streets and killing or injuring people.

This is what happened when the Children of Israel went the other way and began to adopt the customs of the nations surrounding them..the very thing they were told not to do..and the very reason the inhabitants of the land before them were destroyed.

The secret to understanding it is to know that the nations and original inhabitants of these lands in the Olde Testament were far more violent. But you ..in your intellect...must have it backwards and think no one sees it and you for what you are.

NO problem by me..keep it up...it just does not deceive me or people out here who have a grasp of history.

And our own land as we proceed down this road...will also become more violent..and it is happening to us as well.

"For they have filled the land with violence." Another variation of this violence would be a nation divided.
And you have many professional dividers in this nation today..dividers ..not uniters. No rocket material needed here folks.

Many ministers today ..also do not teach this history ...which is one of the reasons for the Olde Testment...that we would know what happens to people...who turn away from God's ways. These ministers are selling their flocks short.

Very few ministers today can even teach the Whole Council of God.

Nonetheless...you are going to have to get up a lot earlier to sell this pablum to people who have been taught some real history..not the pablum you are want to post here on ATS.

It just is not true when you know the bigger picture of the history of this world.

Hope this helps some of the readers out here.



Dmvr34,

Well said..well said.

With one caveat..

about evolving...

When I read books ..and particularly books which are over 100 years olde. It is obvious to me that these people could write..and had an excellent grasp of the English Language. John Milton...the great philosophers..these people could write...and had an extensive language skills.

Today ..even at college level...we are often reduced to a four letter vocabulary. Writing at a newspaper level or lower.

I don't detect a lot of evolution here.

Our science and technology has put us in better homes, cars, clothes, foods...et al..but it has not made us better people. Better consumers yes..but better people no.
How much can you say about a people who describe themselves by what they consume...by the flesh???

Violence is not the bibles fualt, it is us humans who kill humans.

Precisely the point I was making about "Democide."

This killing and violence is still going on today ..particularly in the resource wars which have intensified since the days of the Spanish Armada and expansion into the world for resources.

There is a saying among some in the know today...that where the oil companies go ..violence soon follows and so too do drugs.
Take that for whatever it is worth to you.

Democide..death by ones own government.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

originally posted by: orangetom1999

originally posted by: rokkuman
a reply to: orangetom1999

why do you bother quoting my op if you arent interested in addressing any of the points made?
your post was a long rant that has nothing to do with the op.

All I am asking for is for christians to at least admit that old testament violence was a bad thing, but all Ive seen so far are christians trying to justify old testament violence.

Good grief rokkuman,


Many of these nations surrounding ancient Israel...were passing their first born through the fires of Molec...sacrificing them to the god of the hot bronze statue with a fire buring inside it. Rolling their still living children into this red hot cauldron.

I know christians are extremely creative when it comes to justifying bible violence but please check your "holy" book ,the command to slaughter women and kids in numbers 31 had nothing to do with Molech worship. it was by the numbers genocidal violence.

rokkuman

I know christians are extremely creative when it comes to justifying bible violence but please check your "holy" book ,the command to slaughter women and kids in numbers 31 had nothing to do with Molech worship. it was by the numbers genocidal violence.

I think you are being very creative in your imagination..in putting this onus off on the Bible and God when you so obviously do not know what these people were doing in and around their festivals and holydays.

One of the things some of these nations would do is have everyone on the side of a hill and when the sun came up and reflected off a lake and onto the side of the hill...it would symbolize the rising of the sun god and there would be a mass orgy on the side of this hill. This was common place and many of the women did not know who was the father of their children. Along with this in some of these nations was sex with animals. This is the reason for the land being defiled...as were the people. This kind of thing is hardly taught or read about today unless one knows where to look or get the books which have not been heavily censored. But if you know how to read the Word it is in there..and telling of why many of these nations were destroyed...as were Sodom and Gomorrah.

There was much more than Molec worship going on out there. Much much more.

What is it that you do not understand about the religion of Balam...for which the Midianites were about???

Thanks,
Orangetom

originally posted by: rokkuman
it seems that according to christians killing women and children is ok if its done by the guys in the bible.

So, what EXACTLY is your beef (you believe everything you read)?

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: rokkuman

Because those who don't believe the bible go to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Best to believe and not question ANYTHING in the bible, it's safer that way.

I don't "believe" in the bible; but respect its poetry and wisdom.

really?
whats so poetic and wise about commands to slaughter babies and women and old people? (numbers)
whats so poetic and wise about threats to rub peoples faeces into peoples faces? (malachi)
whats so poetic and wise about describing explicit sexual activities with subtle references to bestiality? (ezekiel)

I guess we need to round up some biblical scholars, poet laureates , amateur theologians and put them in a child's wading pool filled with lime flavored Jello and have them 'wrestle' it out; everyone chanting "Whats so poetic about ANY DOGMA! written by MAN".

a reply to: orangetom1999


Molech worshippers throwing their kids into furnaces does not really justify the "good guys" of the bible slaughtering babies and women by the sword. if anything at all both groups were equally as barbaric and had no problems killing children.

But the difference is only one group of barbarians have their historical records held up as the "holy" word of God.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: rokkuman

Because those who don't believe the bible go to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Best to believe and not question ANYTHING in the bible, it's safer that way.

I don't "believe" in the bible; but respect its poetry and wisdom.

really?
whats so poetic and wise about commands to slaughter babies and women and old people? (numbers)
whats so poetic and wise about threats to rub peoples faeces into peoples faces? (malachi)
whats so poetic and wise about describing explicit sexual activities with subtle references to bestiality? (ezekiel)

I guess we need to round up some biblical scholars, poet laureates , amateur theologians and put them in a child's wading pool filled with lime flavored Jello and have them 'wrestle' it out; everyone chanting "Whats so poetic about ANY DOGMA! written by MAN".

well you said you respect the poetry and wisdom of the bible. Most nornal people see neither poetry nor wisdom in verses about spreading poop on peoples faces and slaughtering babies. If you think thats poetic then well...

originally posted by: rokkuman
a reply to: orangetom1999


Molech worshippers throwing their kids into furnaces does not really justify the "good guys" of the bible slaughtering babies and women by the sword. if anything at all both groups were equally as barbaric and had no problems killing children.

But the difference is only one group of barbarians have their historical records held up as the "holy" word of God.

LOL LOL LOL....oh..goodness me!! Your posts is astonishing in it's provincialness.

Once again..you seem to think no one can see the difference.

You mean the worshipers of Molec...did not believe that sacrificing their children ..their first born was an instruction from god?? That it would save them by works...by being obedient???

Your narrow-mindedness...while appearing to have the last word ...is astonishing.

No one in their right minds sacrifices their children unless they think it gets them something important on the other end..something unobtainable except by a religious system ..a dogma. In most religions this is some variation of the afterlife. And it was a bloody sickening mess..the way they carried it out. In the South Ameican countries they had their variation of this ..and it too was a bloody mess. So to with the god Kemish of the Moabites.

There are variations of this bloody mess to be found all over the world..even among the people who liked to paint themselves blue. It was centuries ..before they caught on and were taught differently. But variants of that religion still exist today.

This is why you check out the dogmas of works..very very carefully.

You try to paint a mosaic of history but you leave much out.

No problem ..I will fill in with what I know.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Dammit when are worshipers of Molec going to apologize for sacrificing babies!!?!

Pointing out other peoples actions in no way minimizes or excuses the actions of christians and the apparent actions of the christian god, its a tired old tactic that belongs in the playground.

In before OrangeTom's fake astonishment and merriment....

a reply to: rokkuman

Molech worshippers throwing their kids into furnaces does not really justify the "good guys" of the bible slaughtering babies and women by the sword.

I should take a moment to educate you to this concept of "good guys" verses "Bad guys."

There are no good guys in the Bible...none. There is obedient and disobedient. Since the Fall through Adam..all are bad guys..no exceptions. The only difference is that some have become far worse than others...but all are bad guys.

If you read the history of Ancient Israel from the Olde Testament...it is clear that they are "Bad guys" and particularly their leadership..as they lead the people do do things they were told not to do.

It is often a record of disobedience and men going after other religions..other gods. Occasionally you would see a king who came to power and turned about and went the other way from disobedience. But mostly is was disobedience among the Kings over Israel. This is why God gave them a king in His displeasure..not in His Pleasure. For God was displeased with the Children of Israel wanting to be like other nations. To be part of the world and the world system. Part of the New World Order...of those day. And make no mistake ..this was and still is today a religious order.

When the children of Israel were disobedient they too were punished and often severely. Even put into captivity many times. And for disobedience..for going after other gods. For not doing what God had instructed them to do via the Law of Moses. For God cannot dwell among sin and disobedience...among fallen men.

This was the reason the land was cleaned in the manner it was..because the original inhabitants of the land had sinned and so totally defiled the land. And The God of the Fathers cannot dwell among such sin.

There area no good guys..today or yester year..nothing has changed here. We are all bad guys before God and this included Believers. Astonishingly ...many ministers are remiss in teaching this understanding to their flocks. This is why so many Atheists do not like Believers...because the Believers...,many of them do not themselves understand this ..about good guys and bad guys...we are all bad guys before God.

This knowledge is why you have difficulty understanding what it is that I am saying.

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

No good guys?

And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Job was "perfect and upright", according to God. But according to Jesus, the ultimate Bible "good guy", John the Baptist was "gooder" than Job!

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater man than John the Baptist

Then of course we have Noah, who was a good guy, and Enoch, who walked with God. According to the Bible both Enoch and Elijah never died, and seeing that the wages of sin is death, I guess they were sinless.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

No good guys?

And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Job was "perfect and upright", according to God. But according to Jesus, the ultimate Bible "good guy", John the Baptist was "gooder" than Job!

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater man than John the Baptist

Then of course we have Noah, who was a good guy, and Enoch, who walked with God. According to the Bible both Enoch and Elijah never died, and seeing that the wages of sin is death, I guess they were sinless.

Good guy...???

It says Noah was perfect in his generations. This means Noah had not defiled himself as had the rest of mankind. Neither Noah..his three sons nor their wives had defiled themselves and their generations with corrupt seed as had the rest of mankind. But Noah was of sin as were the rest of us.

It does not say Noah was good in the manner we so take for granted today.

Nor with the rest of the people you mention. ]]

In particular there is a sin of Job...and his friend Elijah..points this out to him...and so too in the narrative does God.

The default of good as men see it today does not apply here. This causes a lot of confusion among those debating good and bad.

And born of woman...means by way of men...."in sin hath my mother conceived me" is what David stated.

Only One was born without being conceived by woman through men. Which is why He was without sin.

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

I never said that the Bible said that Noah was perfect. But he was "good". Not perfect, but good. Good is good enough to be a "good guy".

GOD says that Job IS perfect, in the Bible. Job and Elijah never met, so he never pointed out anything to Job, let alone Job's shortcomings! (As if Elijah's words, or your opinion, would trump God's)

Sorry, I don't agree with your assessment that there are no "good guys" in the Bible. At the very least, you have Jesus, born of a woman, who was, for all intents and purposes, a "good guy".

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

I can't believe that you think that God created the world and said it was was good, but there are no good people in the Bible, let alone the world!

Pity

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

I never said that the Bible said that Noah was perfect. But he was "good". Not perfect, but good. Good is good enough to be a "good guy".

GOD says that Job IS perfect, in the Bible. Job and Elijah never met, so he never pointed out anything to Job, let alone Job's shortcomings! (As if Elijah's words, or your opinion, would trump God's)

Sorry, I don't agree with your assessment that there are no "good guys" in the Bible. At the very least, you have Jesus, born of a woman, who was, for all intents and purposes, a "good guy".

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

I can't believe that you think that God created the world and said it was was good, but there are no good people in the Bible, let alone the world!

Pity

Yes..I understood that you stated good...and I stated Perfect concerning Noah. NO problem. It did not say that Noah was good..but that he was a just man after God...and perfect in his generations..meaning he had not defiled himself..nor his wife and children..and their wives as was going on in the peoples at the time before the flood.

Here from the KJV...Genesis 6

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God" (Genesis 6:9, KJV).

That is the significant thing in the passage concerning Noah...that he was perfect in his generations. But you and others want to define him as good. It says no such thing.

How do we know this about men...from recorded time unto today...you do not have to teach a person to do evil...but to do good. It is that simple. Doing evil is what comes naturally to men and our history tells of this continually ..even in times of "Education and Enlightenment." Times of Science and reasonable men.

I ,mean for Noah to be a "Good Man" he had to have the equivalent of a PHD from somewhere like the Harvard or Oxford of his day...right??: He had to be Educated..enlightened..Illuminated?? And therefore Noah walked with the United Nations of his day...which made him good?? Yes...yes..Noah was properly vetted...by the Oxford and Harvard of his day.

Negative..Noah was a just man after God..and walked with God. Noah was perfect in his generations and had not polluted his blood with the sins/defilement which were taking place with everyone else in that day.

Nothing in there about good. But you and others insist on this terminology. I just point this out..that it says in the Word no such thing about men. About God yes..but men no. Particularly after the fall.

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

It's your choice to make this about Noah. I threw in Noah as a final thought. My post was about Job, who God said was perfect and John the Baptist, who Jesus claimed was the greatest man ever! Then of course, in the Bible, in which you say there are no good men, we have Jesus, who was "good".

I know that Christians want to think that the whole world is evil, but again, I refer you to Genesis 1, where God said "It is good".

There is good in the world and there are good people in the world, but once again, Christians see no good in life or in the world around them. It's their justification for hoping and praying for the prophesied doom, gloom and destruction.

originally posted by: rokkuman
originally posted by: [post=19013358]veteranhumanbeing
originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: rokkuman

VHB: I don't "believe" in the bible; but respect its poetry and wisdom.

rokkuman: really?
whats so poetic and wise about commands to slaughter babies and women and old people? (numbers)
whats so poetic and wise about threats to rub peoples faeces into peoples faces? (malachi)
whats so poetic and wise about describing explicit sexual activities with subtle references to bestiality? (ezekiel)

VHB: I guess we need to round up some biblical scholars, poet laureates , amateur theologians and put them in a child's wading pool filled with lime flavored Jello and have them 'wrestle' it out; everyone chanting "Whats so poetic about ANY DOGMA! written by MAN".

rokkuman: well you said you respect the poetry and wisdom of the bible. Most nornal people see neither poetry nor wisdom in verses about spreading poop on peoples faces and slaughtering babies. If you think thats poetic then well...

I think docile poets and scholarly theologians are the least of your worries depending upon what patch of earth you reside upon right now.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

I think docile poets and scholarly theologians are the least of your worries depending upon what patch of earth you reside upon right now.

LOL LOL LOL...sorry but I can't help it!! This is funny and also quite appropriate as well out here among the wildlife of this world.

Nicely done...and in brevity as well.

Orangetom