Christians, are violent old testament verses relevant to your beliefs today?

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Akragon
Why is it that when someone questions the bible Christians automatically believe that means they hate God?

Is it manipulation or just stupidity?

Someone help me understand

Because you must believe in god, and you must believe in god their way, or you're eternally damned. Even though you believe in god, you're still just as much of a heathen as I am to them.

They have 'opted' into the rules of the belief system is all; meaning they agree and abide using the gift of Free Will (no brainwashing/manipulation) their self determinism working.

a reply to: windword

You must mean the circular logic; "The Bible says everything God does is good, if God did it in the Bible, it's Good, The Bible is God's word, If the Bible says it, it's true."? As long as Christians defend the incidents of genocide committed under the orders of their God in the Old Testament, while condemning the actions of non-Christians, it's a valid discussion, in my opinion.

You wrote "The Bible says everything God does is good, if God did it in the Bible, it's Good, The Bible is God's word, If the Bible says it, it's true.? " Not true at all. The bible does not say that everything God does is good to you or for you. There are rewards and punishments both. If you had said that all God does is justifiable then that would be more in line of Christian thinking. God does many acts which are not in accordance with people. Neither are the entire Hebrew or Greek scriptures the words of God. That is why discernment and study must be involved in understanding the biblical authors intent. Chapters and verses are not in the original manuscripts and the entire thought passages are to be read and understood in context.

Genocide? You blame a god that you admit does not even exist? What logic is that? If the God of Abram does not exist then how does He require all terrestrial creation shall die? But then let's get back to the atheists selling point. God does not exist so how could a non existing entity order any genocide? Sort of silly isn't it? Then what is your answer? It can't be Christians because they did not even exist back then and it can't be God because he does not exist. So who is to blame? That kind of screws up your logic doesn't it? So this bible thing is just a dream scheme by a whole bunch of non Christian guys who lived in different times and places to say about the same things. What are the odds on that one?

So who are the naughty ones today that kill over one million people a year in this country alone? If it can't be the nasty ole God that doesn't exist or the crazy Christians who somehow don't like murder. Then tell me who is libel for our modern genocide even as we speak? Today we have a killing factory which murders over 700 children a day. By whose order is this ritual performed? Would you call this a genocide or simply pro choice? If a nice name fits today then why can't we use it for the bible murders? Lets just say that God had a pro choice. That is if you want to blame this God that doesn't even exist.

Now if there is this God of Abram, then what you are saying is that He should not have the same rights that you have. After all He is just the Creator and we are the big boys on the block who call the shots. Let's not condemn our pro choice but let's condemn God's pro choice. Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black doesn't it? What we really need are brooms to clean our own house first.

a reply to: Seede

WOW! You certainly are being obtuse, in my opinion.

No! I don't believe that the biblical God is entitled to the same rights that I am. NO! I don't believe that the God of the Bible exists. But there are plenty of people who do, claim that "he" is perfect in everything "he" says and does, including genocide and ordering mankind to commit genocide in his name.

What I do believe is that MEN have projected their own humanity, and created for themselves a God that is created in THEIR image. This God of MEN justifies their ignorance and fear, resulting in genocide and oppression.

The sooner we realize that GOD is just an excuse for bad behavior, and that religion allows MEN to justify the imposition of unjust double standards on society, in the name of MY GOD, NOT YOUR GOD, the better off humanity will be. We need to be honest with ourselves and recognize that the "GOD" we created is our own imperfect reflection.

originally posted by: rokkuman

Your so called "holy bible" drips with the blood of men, women, children, infants and old people slaughtered by Old Testament warlords. Im sure you Bible experts know the verses Im talking about so don't ask me for citations. While I am most aware of the threat posed by radical Islam its most laughable whenever Christians point fingers at islamic violence. Its a complete pot/kettle moment.

"But biblical violence happened in the past"

If it is purely a "past" thing, then what are those nasty verses from the past doing in your Bibles in this age? Or do you retain then because they are somehow relevant to your theology? If so, then don't bother telling me the details because Christians and Muslims fall in the same category.

If those verses are not relevant to you then I dare you to rip out them out of the Bible since you don't need them anymore in the 21st century. Then, at least have the integrity to admit that bible violence and genocide was a bad thing. But nooo you're going to justify it or tell me that its a good thing because God ordered it or something.

I guess barbaric violence is only acceptable if your team does it, right?

Same old thing: "I'm going to bash the Bible, but please, don't ask me to explain myself!"

People dying as a result of sin is not a good thing. If anybody says it is, they are either lying, or ignorant. The wages of sin is death, but God much rather wants nobody to perish, but to come unto eternal life. The fact the Bible records violent acts does not negate the fact that we are all in need of a Savior. If anything, they should serve as an example as to what can and will happen on that last day to those who have lived their life strictly fulfilling their own fleshly lusts and rejecting the tugging at their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

You're not going to ruffle any feathers by projecting your hate toward the Word of God. You're just going to make any Christians around here pray for you. Now, I dare you to ask Jesus Christ to be your personal Lord and Savior. He loves you just as much as He loves everybody else. Go on, give it a try! God bless.

a reply to: rokkuman

(didn't go through whole thread - still catching up; sorry if this has been discussed)

I grew up in a Christian household, and most of my friends and family are Christian - and we're still close... However, based on my own experience and research, I rejected the religion in my late 20's - so I've had a good run to leave a comment I think

The old testament IS still relevant to Christians, whether they like it or not, because the Old Testament contain "prophecies" (see for instance the book of Daniel) that according to Christians, confirm Jesus as the messiah - without being the Jewish messiah, he can't be the son of god/god incarnate; hence not the saviour in the same context as Christianity needs him to be.

Also ripping out verses would be tampering with the bible - and its forbidden (basically god's going to curse you)... That didn't stop Constantine and the "church fathers" though.

I understand why some Christians will say they don't believe in the god of the old testament; its because they're good people but conflicted... However, it remains rather silly... The new testament doesn't have any claim to fame without the old testament; and the old testament is the diary of a schizophrenic psychopath (IMHO) - who suddenly became all peaceful and stuff in the new testament.

Really?

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers, but this is my opinion and I guess I needed to rant a bit as well Thanks for the thread.

a reply to: rokkuman

Well for the things in the past what are we supposed to do forget them take them out of the book forget they
ever happened. Becuase if you dont know where you have been as a people in the past you will have no idea
of the future.
And god knows why he did the things he did in the old testement and if you research and study you can know too God dont lie to ya you might not like the truth your getting but he/she it the true I AM dont lie

a reply to: windword

WOW! You certainly are being obtuse, in my opinion.

I'm glad you admit that it is in your opinion because all of your postulating has been opinionated. If you are so determined to advance your disbelief then by all means that is your prerogative but then you should also be honest to your own opinions.

No! I don't believe that the biblical God is entitled to the same rights that I am. NO! I don't believe that the God of the Bible exists. But there are plenty of people who do, claim that "he" is perfect in everything "he" says and does, including genocide and ordering mankind to commit genocide in his name.

All people have the same rights as you have to believe whatsoever they choose to believe and that is not being obtuse. You are not the grand master of intelligence that you would want others to believe and you have no supremacy in the matters of Theology. In fact theology should not be in your vocabulary as you have professed no deity. To blame a non existing deity of genocide leaves me to wonder just where your theological intelligence lays. If some thing does not exist then it cannot be the cause of whatever does exist. Or can it exist in your world?

You have given no answer to the genocide that is being practiced even as we speak. Millions of children as well as adults being exterminated yearly with not even a whimper from your camp. You have postulated that the biblical God does not exist and yet you contend that this biblical God (that does not exist) has directed a genocide thousands of years ago. You then wonder why your sanity is being questioned.

a reply to: Seede

You have given no answer to the genocide that is being practiced even as we speak.

Yes, I did, but you can't see it.

Millions of children as well as adults being exterminated yearly with not even a whimper from your camp. You have postulated that the biblical God does not exist and yet you contend that this biblical God (that does not exist) has directed a genocide thousands of years ago. You then wonder why your sanity is being questioned.

Please read what I wrote again. It's not my sanity that should be questioned. It the sanity of those who believe in ans worship a God like the one described in the Old Testament.

What I do believe is that MEN have projected their own humanity, and created for themselves a God that is created in THEIR image. This God of MEN justifies their ignorance and fear, resulting in genocide and oppression.

The sooner we realize that GOD is just an excuse for bad behavior, and that religion allows MEN to justify the imposition of unjust double standards on society, in the name of MY GOD, NOT YOUR GOD, the better off humanity will be. We need to be honest with ourselves and recognize that the "GOD" we created is our own imperfect reflection.

originally posted by: jeramie

originally posted by: rokkuman

Your so called "holy bible" drips with the blood of men, women, children, infants and old people slaughtered by Old Testament warlords. Im sure you Bible experts know the verses Im talking about so don't ask me for citations. While I am most aware of the threat posed by radical Islam its most laughable whenever Christians point fingers at islamic violence. Its a complete pot/kettle moment.

"But biblical violence happened in the past"

If it is purely a "past" thing, then what are those nasty verses from the past doing in your Bibles in this age? Or do you retain then because they are somehow relevant to your theology? If so, then don't bother telling me the details because Christians and Muslims fall in the same category.

If those verses are not relevant to you then I dare you to rip out them out of the Bible since you don't need them anymore in the 21st century. Then, at least have the integrity to admit that bible violence and genocide was a bad thing. But nooo you're going to justify it or tell me that its a good thing because God ordered it or something.

I guess barbaric violence is only acceptable if your team does it, right?

Same old thing: "I'm going to bash the Bible, but please, don't ask me to explain myself!"

People dying as a result of sin is not a good thing. If anybody says it is, they are either lying, or ignorant. The wages of sin is death, but God much rather wants nobody to perish, but to come unto eternal life. The fact the Bible records violent acts does not negate the fact that we are all in need of a Savior. If anything, they should serve as an example as to what can and will happen on that last day to those who have lived their life strictly fulfilling their own fleshly lusts and rejecting the tugging at their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Youre talking about new testament ideas. op is speaking of Old Testament ultra-violence.

If the old testament violence is not relevant to your religion, why do your bibles still contain the old testament with tons of "sword verses"???

a reply to: rokkuman

If you don't believe, why do you care?

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: rokkuman

If you don't believe, why do you care?

There is an obvious problem (something about the dogma resonates) that requires ACTION/VERBAGE, a push back. It is interesting that religious belief systems are trying to become old school dictatorial/tyrannical 'statehoods' again (taking over another's region of land; exterminating those occupying that will not convert in order to implant their own dogma). This was typically done if another required the others natural resources; not any more, now it is "you are not of my faith, you die". To put it in WW2 perspective; the fascists (being nationalists) were more of a "if you are not of this particular human order or decent" (in our estimation/determination) you have no reason to be alive as you will spoil the greater potential of a more pure genetic pool by inbreeding.

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: rokkuman

If you don't believe, why do you care?

If belief in either book can create groups of people like this then everyone should care...

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: rokkuman

If you don't believe, why do you care?

Because all three Abrahamic religions rely on, and justify, the doctrine of violence that is dictated by the God of the Old Testament. We're still reeling from the Catholic Doctrine of the "Just War" and the "Doctrine of Discovery", while holy wars are still raging across the planet!

Here in the US, we have politicians trying to legislate laws based on Old Testament law, every day! We have the Pope decrying, homosexual equality rights, condoms and birth control, as well as supporting corporal punishment against children, all based on Old Testament law. Here in the US we have people calling for wars, thinking that they can "hasten the hand of God", so that the prophecies of destruction from the Old Testament can come true!

originally posted by: kosmicjack
a reply to: rokkuman

If you don't believe, why do you care?

christianity isn't immune to criticism and scrutiny from a non-christian perspective is it? I simply asked a question regarding old testament violence. How are the sword and genocide verses relevant to christianity? If it isn't what are those verses doing in the christians bible?

a reply to: rokkuman

If the old testament violence is not relevant to your religion, why do your bibles still contain the old testament with tons of "sword verses"???

All of the OT is relevant to the NT with and without violence. The tons of sword verses are part of that which is historically relevant to both Hebrew and Christian origins. It is some thing like roe vs wade and the millions of children who are still being slaughtered today. Not by Christians by the way but by the non Christians in the guise of pro choice. Makes the OT seem like a cake walk in comparison.

Since 1775 to present date we have had about 60 wars ourselves with our casualties close to 3 million dead and wounded. And just in baby killing alone we have had about 40,000,000 slaughtered in the good name of (not God) but Civil Rights. And you have the gall to criticize tribal warfare of four and five thousand years ago? You had best get a broom and start sweeping the DC gang. Start rewriting your own history and purging your own books before you take interest in the ancients. Good ole America did this all by themselves and they didn't have a nasty ole OT or a God to blame.

a reply to: Seede

Not by Christians by the way but by the non Christians in the guise of pro choice. Makes the OT seem like a cake walk in comparison.

BS! Your God IS NOT pro-life!

Numbers 5:16
“‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—

21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust
Compiled by Rev. Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes
Boise, Idaho
U.S.A.
October 1999
Written by Reverend Father Raphael Moore

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: rokkuman

If the old testament violence is not relevant to your religion, why do your bibles still contain the old testament with tons of "sword verses"???

All of the OT is relevant to the NT with and without violence. The tons of sword verses are part of that which is historically relevant to both Hebrew and Christian origins.

if its "historically relevant" then its hypocritical for christians to bash that 'other' religion for its "historically relevant" sword verses, but I guess christianity has to be given special treatment. genocide and the slaughter of women and children are acceptable only if its done by the good guys of the bible right?

a reply to: rokkuman

if its "historically relevant" then its hypocritical for christians to bash that 'other' religion for its "historically relevant" sword verses, but I guess christianity has to be given special treatment. genocide and the slaughter of women and children are acceptable only if its done by the good guys of the bible right?

Being relevant in the sense that facts are facts regardless of good or bad. What the God of Abram required under one covenant of one era of people is not necessarily the same as what He requires under another covenant of another era of people. Both are relevant to each other as history but not relevant as being of the same mindset.

Torah or Mikra is relevant to Christianity as well as Muhammadism although each was birthed at different times but neither Christianity or Muhammadism is under the same covenants as is the covenant of Abram or Moses. It would better explained as both apples and oranges are birthed on trees of their likeness but are not of the same seed. Both are relevant as being trees and life in the soil but it ends there.

Being a Christian is not necessarily being a Jew or the body of Islam although all are relevant to each other. If one is justified does not mean all are justified. Each must meet the standards of their respective authors. A Christian will or should only condemn the actions which are against the Christian principals. Islam and Jews do the very same even though all are Abram origin. If all had the same God then you may have a case for your understanding but none of the three have the same God even though they are all three relevant to each other. If you are under the assumption that simply because all three are relevant makes them of the same deity is not true and being not unified then criticism can not be hypocritical.

GW Bush said god told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan and for the Muslims out there in these countries they see Christian armies invading their homeland

Christians still are violent in modern times no need to go back hundreds of years :-/

I'm not religious but if people want or need a faith whoever their god may be,then that's fine as long as they
Are tolerant of others and have morality they will fit in well with the majority of the rest of society

a reply to: rokkuman

The way I see it, after the new covenant, no. God, many times in the new testament appeared to the disciples and spoke out against what he seemed to have preached in most Levitical law. Almost as if there were a different god. After Jesus' death we were all 'saved', but not in the sense you're thinking. Jesus spoke out against many Judaic traditions, including again, much of the Levitical law. Take for example Peter, he envisions a sheet of 'unclean animals' which God said he has cleansed. Although a parallel about not discriminating, it also shows that 'God' now allowed us to eat creatures which were formerly unclean. The parallel also being that he should accept Gentiles to his group of now 'Christians'. Formerly, Jews and Gentiles should not have associated. As in the parable of 'The Good Samaritan', a similar story about helping out another person regardless of creed.

This was mostly off the top of my head, Im fuzzy on a few facts. So please feel free to correct me if I have made errors.