New Evidence About Shroud

The shroud of turin was widely dismissed as a medieval forgery after radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the 13th or 14th century. Now a growing body of evidence is calling for reassessment of the shroud, which is kept in Turin, Italy.


The latest item comes from the London-based Journal of Optics, published by the Institute of Physics. Two scientists from the University of Padua, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, report in the journal's April edition the discovery of a heretofore-undetected reverse image on the shroud. They say the smaller, fainter image on the back of the cloth depicts just the face and hands. And it's a superficial image, adhering only to the outermost fibers, just like the image on the front. "It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," Fanti writes.



'There is only one person it could've wrapped, even though science could never prove who it wrapped.' �Barrie Schwortz



The fact that their study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is significant and "a step in the right direction", says Barrie Schwortz, editor of Shroud.com. This is one of the most comprehensive of the many websites devoted to the phenomenon.


Schwortz, who is Jewish, was a shroud skeptic until he served as a photographer for the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP). The five-day project was the most intensive investigation in the history of the image. Besides providing the first public viewing of the media age, the project reinforced the shroud's cachet as a truly unique religious icon.


But then, 10 years later, came the much-heralded carbon-14 tests, confirmed by three laboratories, dating the cloth to the Middle Ages. "It was like dropping an h-bomb, and seeing how long it takes life to come back," says Gary Habermas, chair of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University, who has coauthored two books on the shroud.

link

I know that this topic was discussed already many times, but maybe this is sth to add ??

Former discussion:
www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread32336/pg1

speeling ;(

[edit on 15-12-2004 by jazzgul]

I have no doubt that the shroud is the authentic burial
cloth of Christ. The carbon dating was unreliable due to
the fire the cloth suffered. The molds and spores taken
from the shroud are more telling. The impressions of
flowers and plants left along the sides of the shroud,
as if someone had placed flowers around Him after burial,
are what really got me.

I'll google around and see if I can find links to these items.
They are in books that I have here. Perhaps they are on
the web as well.


Here is one - www.geocities.com...

This one explains it well - www.shroud2000.com...

[edit on 12/15/2004 by FlyersFan]

Honestly I'm not much of believer, yet the Turin shroud mystery is fascinating -every time I read story about that I get mixed feelings. My guts are telling me there is something there -I would give a lot to now WHAT...

What intrest me is the carbon dating of a material only 2000 yrs old. Ive always been under the impression that carbon dating was an inefficient method for anything less than 50,000yrs, that it was inaccurate, and carbon dating was only used for rock, petrified wood etc.
What i mean is ,a bit like using the hubble telescope to watch the next door neighbours, it only works long distance.??

can anyone explain better how it works, and if its useful for such a "young" article?

Originally posted by instar
What intrest me is the carbon dating of a material only 2000 yrs old. Ive always been under the impression that carbon dating was an inefficient method for anything less than 50,000yrs, that it was inaccurate, and carbon dating was only used for rock, petrified wood etc.
What i mean is ,a bit like using the hubble telescope to watch the next door neighbours, it only works long distance.??

can anyone explain better how it works, and if its useful for such a "young" article?

Instar, you are somewhat misinformed re: carbon dating. Carbon dating is alleged to be better at dating young things. Carbon has a half-life of about 5000 years. Generally, radioisotope dating is considered accurate up to about 10 half lives. So in the case of radiocarbon dating we are talking about things between 50 and 60,000 years old. Carbon dating, can only be used on once living things, so rock is out. Petrified wood has most of it's Carbon replaced, and is similarly not suited to radiocarbon dating.

However, IMO, ALL radiometric dating techniques are unreliable. They rely on the assumption that isotope levels have remained constant throughout history - a huge assumption. They often assume that all 'daughter' material is the result of decay of the isotope of interest - another HUGE assumption. In addition to this, it is assumed that radioactive decay rates have remained constant, which is probably true, but evidence does exist to the contrary, especially in the case of radiation induced via electron capture.

In defense of radiocarbon dating: this technique may be able to be 'calibrated' to a certain extent using data taken from tree rings. Obviously this calibration is only capable of going back so far, but suggests that for dating things such as the shroud and other more recent items, radiocarbon dating MAY be more reliable than other radiometric dating techniques, but only as far as the 'calibration' of the tree rings goes back. Personally, I am not a fan of ANY radiometric dating technique.

I have trouble with the Shroud;

Jesus never wrote anything down, although we are told he wrote in the sand. He never built anything, although he was a carpenters son. He never stayed in one place too long, never blessed "things", only people.

He purposely avoided leaving anything behind that people would worship, which is apparently occuring anyway. It would be difficult to believe he went to these lengths, to forget to erase his image left on the shroud.

People have a tendancy to need something tangible to worship, which goes against the grain of what jesus taught.

Originally posted by toolmaker

I have trouble with the Shroud;

Jesus never wrote anything down, although we are told he wrote in the sand. He never built anything, although he was a carpenters son. He never stayed in one place too long, never blessed "things", only people.

He purposely avoided leaving anything behind that people would worship, which is apparently occuring anyway. It would be difficult to believe he went to these lengths, to forget to erase his image left on the shroud.

People have a tendancy to need something tangible to worship, which goes against the grain of what jesus taught.

yes, you are right toolmaker, but you have to admit as well that some people might be curious about origin of things (and not nececary for the reason to worship them...)

Originally posted by jazzgul

Originally posted by toolmaker

I have trouble with the Shroud;

Jesus never wrote anything down, although we are told he wrote in the sand. He never built anything, although he was a carpenters son. He never stayed in one place too long, never blessed "things", only people.

He purposely avoided leaving anything behind that people would worship, which is apparently occuring anyway. It would be difficult to believe he went to these lengths, to forget to erase his image left on the shroud.

People have a tendancy to need something tangible to worship, which goes against the grain of what jesus taught.

yes, you are right toolmaker, but you have to admit as well that some people might be curious about origin of things (and not nececary for the reason to worship them...)

I'm with toolmaker, the deliberate act of not creating relics & icons was a conscious discipline of the prophet-teacher, aka Jesus.

I'm with jazzgul on the delving into (forensic science) mysteries.

The greater religious communities have way-too-much invested in the
'symbolism & relics' markets to have the Shroud of Turin debunked by scientific analysis....or the 'nails' or 'splinters from the cross' or the various Saints bone-fragments, etc etc

However, the 'foretold' 'prophecied'...'Falling Away' might include the
eventual disproof of the shroud & debunking supposed Noahs Ark at Ararat.
Then, only the diehard, fundamentalist Christians, might still insist that the 'Relics' & 'Icons' were purposely created [or then re-created] for the reason of 'radiating grace' & ' Spiritual Growth' to the faithful.
Whilst, the reasoned Christians, 'fall away' from faith/church doctrines

....?

I believe there are a lot of mysteries in this world, which are worth to investigate -Turin shroud is one of them. Yes, St Udio -sometimes devoted believes can disrupt us to find the real truth behind, because real truth might be not the one accepted by the fundaments of the religion. This is the world we live in, and latest "political" happenings are excellent proof of that...

The shroud has always been something I've felt rather adverse to personally. I believe people desire to know what Christ looked like, and prove their own preceptions about him. FlyersFan was very quick to ad his/her absolute answer here. I understand it is a matter of faith for some people, but I ask, why do you feel you need this tangible proof?

Also acording to my understanding of the bible it's a bit of a biblical imposibility for the shroud to be real, as God said that he would never give physical proof of his existance, only through faith can one believe.

LOL for a religion that was specifically told NOT to worship physical idols there do seem to be some for whom that is a main means of feeling Christian. (not to imply that anyone here is though but Christians at large seem to venerate the shroud quite a bit)

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

Originally posted by The Astral City
God said that he would never give physical proof of his existance, only through faith can one believe.

I don't remeber that passage. That sounds like something Yoda would say, lol! I could be wrong though, as it has been a long time since I brushed up on the bible.

do you think God would leave his DNA on a cloth for an evil person to one day try to clone? The shroud is a fake manufactured by the Catholic church. The person wrapped in it was the leader of the Templar Knights, killed on Friday the 13th.

Originally posted by Knightmare
do you think God would leave his DNA on a cloth for an evil person to one day try to clone? The shroud is a fake manufactured by the Catholic church. The person wrapped in it was the leader of the Templar Knights, killed on Friday the 13th.

Jacques De Molay, the last Grand Master of the Poor Knights of Jesus Christ of the Temple of Solomon the King, was not wrapped in a shroud: he was burned at the stake by anti-Templar conspirators, and his remains were mostly ash.

Furthermore, Brother De Molay was murdered on March 18, 1314; not Friday the 13th.


[edit on 26-12-2004 by Masonic Light]

I�m really undecided on the Shroud as there are so many good points on both sides. The carbon dating results were a serious blow to the believers but even these can be disputed. First off, no test is 100% accurate and there will always be variables that could affect the outcome such as the fire that took place centuries earlier. Secondly, the results of the VP-8 Image Analyzer, done in �78� seem to show that in fact this shroud had been placed over someone as a normal painting could not produce this type of relief image. Also, pollen grains have been found, in the shroud, which are native to the area where Jesus was supposed to have been entombed. I�ve also heard that this image looks as if it was created by some form of intense radiation, or light, which could go along with the resurrection story (Sorry, I can�t remember where I found that one). I think what is most astonishing though, is the fact that in a time where we have super computers and can fake any image, making it believable, we still can�t figure out if this thing is authentic or not.

Alot of early history was recorded by the Church.. the story goes as to he was burned.
Ever seen a picture of him? Looks similar to the image on the shroud.

One order also escaped to Italy-- started a hospital, which was later named the Red Cross hospital.

They founded the Red Cross org. Controlling the nation's blood supply now..

imagine the possibilites

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Knightmare
do you think God would leave his DNA on a cloth for an evil person to one day try to clone? The shroud is a fake manufactured by the Catholic church. The person wrapped in it was the leader of the Templar Knights, killed on Friday the 13th.

Jacques De Molay, the last Grand Master of the Poor Knights of Jesus Christ of the Temple of Solomon the King, was not wrapped in a shroud: he was burned at the stake by anti-Templar conspirators, and his remains were mostly ash.

Furthermore, Brother De Molay was murdered on March 18, 1314; not Friday the 13th.


[edit on 26-12-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Knightmare
Alot of early history was recorded by the Church.. the story goes as to he was burned.
Ever seen a picture of him? Looks similar to the image on the shroud.

There were no pictures in the 13th and 14th centuries. Nor are there any portraits of him created during his lifetime in existence that we know of. In short, no one living has any idea as to what he looked like. Like the famous paintings of Jesus Himself, wherein no one knows what He looked like either, having simply adopted the art work of the middle ages as an archetype.

One order also escaped to Italy-- started a hospital, which was later named the Red Cross hospital.

Allow me to state this unequivocally: there is absolutely no evidence that any Templar organization survived the persecution in the early 14th century.

They founded the Red Cross org. Controlling the nation's blood supply now..

Red Cross was founded by Dr. Henry Dunant, along with several other physicians who attended wounded soldiers in battle time, in 1863.

imagine the possibilites

Naturally, the possibilities are endless if you make stuff up instead of researching facts.




[edit on 26-12-2004 by Masonic Light]

Factor in the fire, smoke, and damage the Shroud endured, and you skew the carbon dating results. It really proves nothing, so you have to go back to the pollen evidence as to the area in question, the linen weave, the "counterintuitive," placement of the nails, and so forth.

Almost everyone thought the palms were penetrated by the nails, but it was the wrist. Further checking indicates that is correct as done in those Roman times. So by positional comparison some of the stigmata as "evidence of holiness," looks psychosomatic. The portrait you get is so authentic, that if it were an artwork, it would have taken a supernatural genius. At least in the alleged middle ages, a time of great superstition and ignorance, to produce such a work was astounding. You must look at everything, and if it helps your life, all the better. It is a fantastic artifact.

something to think about:

Boy Jesus Image Created from Turin Shroud

By Rossella Lorenzi, Discovery News

Dec. 23, 2004 � Italian policemen who specialize in the analysis of violent crimes have rejuvenated the image of the bearded man that appears on the Shroud of Turin, one of the most controversial relics in Christendom., producing what they claim is a close possible likeness of Jesus when he was a boy.
Made for "Jesus's Childhood," a documentary that airs on Sunday on the private TV station Retequattro of the Mediaset Group, the computer-generated image has been created with the same procedure used by the police to age the faces of long-time missing people or wanted criminals.

Discovery

I suspected this news to be created specially for Xmas media purpose, but the amount of work is being put into it is worth wondering...

[edit on 26-12-2004 by jazzgul]

bag,, looks like Saddam as a boy... ever see a picture of St. Germaine?? looks alot like the false image of Jesus we see in depictions.

Didn't God say not to make or worship any image of him?

Shroud is fake..