Restoring Discrimination

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Everyone Is wrong—everyone. It's in the dictionary as proof of this error.

Maybe you're just being indiscriminate?

When we pick our words - where do we plant them? We have choices - and this is about choice in more ways than one

You chose to discriminate against the word discriminate

...let's be careful to take an adversarial and consequently lonely position against the notion that discrimination is a form of human folly which leads to bigotry and stupidity, and rescue our precious commodity from those who simply do not care otherwise, but who no less shape our language and culture through their careless misuse.

So, whenever a person prefers or chooses one color over another, for whatever reason - they are only using their powers of discernment? They are not also discriminating?

Your meaning is not clear Les. Or, is it?

a reply to: Bluesma

I actually understand what the French board is up to Bluesma - it's my whole point

Might as well try and keep the sea out of the sand

The point, though, is that words carry ideas, and influence peoples behavior. They are not powerless.

You are preaching to the choir

So, then - what does the attempt (and the whole uneven, pointless process) of trying to protect a language really mean?

...but I understand why they are making an effort. (and why americans would dislike that effort).

I also understand why they would like to preserve the French they have always known. But the French your elderly generation cherishes has changed from something else - and is changing again now

We are nostalgic creatures. I love English. I love different periods of English - right up to and (definitely) including Spanglish :-)

When you say that Americans would dislike the effort - it seems like you see it as an actual plot. What it is is inevitable. French was the language of the world at one time - French culture was king. America has had it's day in the sun. People are saying we should all learn Chinese - won't that be a bite in the shorts for American culture - when Chinese words start creeping into our language?

Language changes, and after a while we hardly think about it. After all - The French didn't use to have a word for entrepreneur

:-)

Are you a lawyer? You sound like one.

a reply to: Bluesma

Well said.

a reply to: groingrinder

Are you a lawyer? You sound like one.

The voice in your head sounds like a lawyer.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

When we pick our words - where do we plant them? We have choices - and this is about choice in more ways than one

You chose to discriminate against the word discriminate

Am I supposed to answer your questions or are they rhetorical? I have difficulty with socratic irony done badly.

As per the OP, “...one cannot discriminate against things, one can only discriminate between them.” I am discriminating between, not against.

So, whenever a person prefers or chooses one color over another, for whatever reason - they are only using their powers of discernment? They are not also discriminating?

They are discriminating if they are choosing a palette of paint. If they are choosing between colors of skin it is for aesthetic reasons like when a movie character must be of a certain ethnicity. But choosing between all black people or all white people is not really choosing or discerning at all. It is the negation of choice in favor of vast generalization. They are using their powers of ignorance and laziness.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Semicollegiate

Language is supposed to change because of isolation, folks over here never hearing other folks in distant places speaking the same language.

Where did English come from? England is not exactly the island you're describing

BTW I've heard of the French Language board. They limit the words in the French Language in some way. Do you know much about that?

I know enough to have a good laugh over it. I have a family member that would like to do the same thing with English, so I bring up the French every once in a while. He hates the French - so, this of course annoys him no end

He wants to protect American culture in the same exact way. He thinks English is perfect and ought not to be tampered with. Thing is, perfect English for him happens to be American English as of about 1940ish or so. If he picked up a book or even a magazine every now and then he'd notice a thing or too - and probably have a conniption

Can't keeps the culture on a lead Semicollegiate

I can't but the centralized government media academe does.

Everybody talks like the TV now. or mass distributed music. The overload dumped on discrimination came from academe and legislation, not from popular usage. If the prejudice hurts came from discrimination, then they weren't prejudice.

Culture is controlled, and has been since the progressive collectivist socialists knew the one best way to do everything.

Do you and your family member ever talk enough to get down to what you agree on?

Much of my family is not big on ideas, too much boring work.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Am I supposed to answer your questions or are they rhetorical? I have difficulty with socratic irony done badly.

You have problems with lots of stuff - that's why this thread

Try not to over think

:-)

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis


So, then - what does the attempt (and the whole uneven, pointless process) of trying to protect a language really mean?

It means, concern about the culture one is in living within. Concerns about what kinds of ideals and values it adopts.

When you say that Americans would dislike the effort - it seems like you see it as an actual plot.

I wasn't thinking in terms of plot- I was thinking that when people perceive another saying, "I don't want to adopt your way, I don't choose to be like you in this way." They often feel like they have been judged negatively, in some round about way, insulted. Many people seem to have problems stepping out of a view of universal moral, ethic or value.
Like if you like horses, and if were faced with someone who says, "I don't like horses", you could easily feel like they just insulted your preference. Not everyone thinks that way, but a whole lot of people do!

What it is is inevitable. French was the language of the world at one time - French culture was king. America has had it's day in the sun. People are saying we should all learn Chinese - won't that be a bite in the shorts for American culture - when Chinese words start creeping into our language?

I imagine there will be some people speaking out against the adoption of some of the ideas entering which are contrary to the current culture.

Language changes, and after a while we hardly think about it. After all - The French didn't use to have a word for entrepreneur

Perhaps I am missing your point on that one. The word is french, they have had it a long time. It is the americans who adopted it and began to use it. Perhaps you meant to say the americans did not have a word for that concept before they adopted it from the french?

Or perhaps you meant, it was not used as a noun, but rather as a verb (entreprendre) before?

It is true, we hardly think about it- yet, people in public eye DO think carefully about the words they use. The media, the press... they consider what kinds of ideas, values and concepts they want to introduce and instill in the minds of the public. They will tend to choose those according to what will further their own goals and intents. That may be as it should be. But I think it is a positive thing if the members of the public ALSO, on their part, use some thought and discernment on what kinds of ideas and values they want to ingest and pass along and encourage in their culture.
This is a conspiracy site. You are likely to fall upon lots of people here that feel that is a positive thing- to stop and analyze the information being fed to you instead of mindlessly swallowing it and letting it change you, your behaviors, and those of your entourage.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

So, whenever a person prefers or chooses one color over another, for whatever reason - they are only using their powers of discernment? They are not also discriminating?

To discriminate is to perceive a distinction between the two colors- to notice red and blue as two distinct colors for example.

If you choose to use one and not the other in your text (or painting, or choice of bed linen) is a choice of preference for one color or the other in that context.

The concept vehicled by this newer interpretation of the word is that perception of differences will, inevitably, involve value judgements between them. Restoration of it's original interpretation supports the concept that you can perceive differences while remaining neutral on value judgements.

You can perceive that French and Americans are different, red and blue are different, without judging one is better than the other, for example. That is a way of thinking that would be in our interest to conserve in our culture.

a reply to: Bluesma

I wasn't thinking in terms of plot- I was thinking that when people perceive another saying, "I don't want to adopt your way, I don't choose to be like you in this way." They often feel like they have been judged negatively, in some round about way, insulted.

No, I know you didn't - plot was the wrong word. Yes - word choice is important :-)

Language is an important part of culture. Protecting it is a form of nationalism - and I don't mean that in a negative way. At least - not necessarily. The family member I mentioned in an earlier post is quite the nationalist - America is being poisoned by outside forces as far as he's concerned. English is a big part of that - for him. I think it's probably the same everywhere we go in this world - language is about identity

You suggested that America might be upset with the French for trying to keep it out. I'm just trying to say - I don't think Americans are concerned at all about that end of it. It's just inevitable that whoever has the most influential culture at the time - whether it's through money, war - politics - music...film - their language is going to seep in no matter what

Language changes, and after a while we hardly think about it. After all - The French didn't use to have a word for entrepreneur

Perhaps I am missing your point on that one. The word is french, they have had it a long time. It is the americans who adopted it and began to use it. Perhaps you meant to say the americans did not have a word for that concept before they adopted it from the french? Or perhaps you meant, it was not used as a noun, but rather as a verb (entreprendre) before?

It's a joke about George Bush - but even without the joke, it still works. English is riddled with French words that have become so common we don't even think about where they came from anymore

You and I agree pretty much on the rest - I think language is incredibly powerful. Words mean things - and sometimes it pays to be fussy about the words we choose

And sometimes - it's just fun to give Les a hard time about being so fussy :-)

a reply to: Bluesma

You can perceive that French and Americans are different, red and blue are different, without judging one is better than the other, for example. That is a way of thinking that would be in our interest to conserve in our culture.

And what about people with discriminating taste?

Words are versatile - sometimes discrimination is about judgement

:-)

Yeah. Discrimination is but the first fork in the road, and where that road takes a person after they make that first turn is up to them, and unfortunately quite often at the influence of many other forces.

Just do the steps that you've been shown, by everyone you've ever known, until the dance becomes your very own.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

...Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately. What the superior man requires is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect....


Confucius - that just figures...

:-)

Language lives. It moves - it dances...things mean what they mean until they mean something else - and then they can mean more than one thing

Can't put words in a cage Les

The long, hard war for social justice will carry on regardless - no matter what we call it

But it's important, occasionally, to clarify their meaning, is it not? And really, the current cultural use of this word is what seems to put it in the cage, not this clarification of what it was originally intended to mean….

As for the long, hard war for social justice, words and language and their inculcative ability, creating a gut reaction in people, is part of the sly, underhanded way that war is fought, so a discussion along these lines seems quite pertinent, at least to me. The use of language is all important in just such a war, as anyone who has been in that trench, personally, can understand: i.e., the calling of names….

What we call "it," then is very important. Language works because there is a certain agreement as to what a word means. Or it doesn't. Or it even becomes double speak, and when phoenetically broken down, means, in fact, the exact opposite of the Merriam Webster agreement, for instance….but that's a whole other subject I have raised, perhaps for a different thread.

But I am replying because I think your post disregards the importance of language and communication, in general, and that I saw that defining discrimination and using it in the current cultural way is really what puts that word in a cage, and this keeps us all in the cage, as well.

Also, not related to your post, in particular, but to others: in general, "racism" can be expressed either by recognizing or not the race of a person. It is a double edged sword that can cut both ways, depending upon who is listening and their feelings. IKnowstuFF''s post about the two women and their perceptions illustrates this rather well. But the point really is about appearance and attendant judgement on that fact alone. That is to say, it tells very little, if anything, about what kind of person one is and whom they really are, inside.

I rather enjoyed this OP. Thank you.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

You suggested that America might be upset with the French for trying to keep it out.

I didn't say America, I said "some Americans" - indicating exactly the kind of personalities as your family member.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Bluesma

You can perceive that French and Americans are different, red and blue are different, without judging one is better than the other, for example. That is a way of thinking that would be in our interest to conserve in our culture.

And what about people with discriminating taste?

Words are versatile - sometimes discrimination is about judgement

:-)

I just think it is worthwhile to remind people of the "positive" usage so that it doesn't get lost or forgotten.

a reply to: tetra50

But it's important, occasionally, to clarify their meaning, is it not? And really, the current cultural use of this word is what seems to put it in the cage, not this clarification of what it was originally intended to mean….

I think that words mean what we agree they mean - and obviously we don't all agree on the same thing at the same time, but there's always a popular definition. It's hard to tell people the word they're using used to mean that when it now means this

Sometimes - it's not so much about now and then as it is about a word meaning more than one thing at a time

If we say a word has to mean what it originally meant forever - how many words would we have to police? Seems like a lot :-)

We can't make language stand still - we can't put it in a cage and make it behave. It changes when we change

I rather enjoyed this OP. Thank you.

I know you meant this for our OP and not me, so you should make sure to thank him directly in case he doesn't see this

Our OP likes to play hide and seek with meaning. He's better at hide than he is at seek - but it's always a lot of fun