The God vs Satan paradox

a reply to: genma

In order to participate in this logic id have to make a lot of base assumptions that i dont believe in.

Analyze the axioms of what you believe.

a reply to: ImaFungi

I dont believe there is such thing as heaven or hell, potentially they are only metaphors/symbols of states accessible as a human living on earth.

I like what you're saying because it puts your ideas a step beyond the carnal/natural mind think. Take it a step further.

There is a heaven and hell but they are not some geographical location we rise up to or fall into when we die. They exist now, right here each and every day of our life. They are one in the same process and we can't have one without the other. In short, hell and heaven are the process by which the True God manifests himself in us daily. And for anyone which understands the bible then you understand that this process is the revealing of the Son of God in you. This is the same message we read in every chapter and every book of the bible.

Learn the pattern inside the bible and it will come to life. Everything in it is good, even when it appears bad.

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
a reply to: genma

Wrong!!!

God is Righteousness. So how can He then pardon the one that led human away from God?

Simple really. All he has to do is repent, and confess Christ as his Lord and Savior. There...Forgiven.

This area of monotheism wouldn't hold water for the average inquisitive 5 year old.

Obviously, if there is a creator, he/she/it is responsible for everything, good, bad, and indifferent.

a reply to: Tardacus

Satan was cast down to earth - he won't be in hell until the very end according to Revelations...

a reply to: genma

Only humans are entitled to the redemption through Jesus Christ - angels don't qualify...by extension as a fallen angel, neither does Lucifer

He is the only person promised by name to be destroyed forever....He has no chance because he will never ask for forgiveness or repent...He thinks he can win and so far he and his are winning on this earth, whats to repent about...? Too bad he already lost.,...a reply to: genma

originally posted by: wyrmboy12
He is the only person promised by name to be destroyed forever....He has no chance because he will never ask for forgiveness or repent...He thinks he can win and so far he and his are winning on this earth, whats to repent about...? Too bad he already lost.,...a reply to: genma

But God created Satan just as It did you. Who is responsible for creating the reprehensible human and also the allowance of a fallen angle/angel 'enlightened one'. I thought God was about mercy regarding its creations (whatever they do is allowed). Its an experimental planet; no rules.

originally posted by: coldkidc
a reply to: Tardacus

Satan was cast down to earth - he won't be in hell until the very end according to Revelations...

So, God as its creation joins IT there in eternity (somehow do not think so).

a reply to: genma
Unfortunate I know both Lucifer and God. And really? I could not decide on who is the bigger asshole.

But really all the troubles of humans can be laid at the feet of humans. No higher power or god or devil need apply. All any of you have to do is look in the mirror and around you. Really I think what we have here is much more complicated then god or devil. What we have here is a whole planet full of hairless monkeys who somehow convinced themselfs there something more then that. Basically a deluded sick individual, with dreams of grandeur sitting on a toilet covered in # and thinking its on some sort of throne, really to stupid to even know that its stupid. Its so silly and convoluted it has even invented make believe sky men with a whole host of caricaturization and higher social order of cherubims and seraphims, all in its magical makebelieve world. And all there so it does not have to look inward at itself.

As I said. Much more complicated it is, this dilemma of humankind.

So yes. Neither god nor the devil created man. Man however created both. They are merely the posters they hang on there walls and like to think on from time to time. You know kind of like that poster of nirvana, or the latest boy band, or Britney Spears and Madonna.

I am afraid what we are dealing with here is much more of a hazard then any evil, or magic apple tree. What we are dealing with here is a deluded unsane animal.

Now if you have any questions on God or Lucifer or the moon monster. I suppose I can answer them. I offcourse do have a direct line on my phone with them, I keep God on spread dial, you know like the space pope. So ya I can like totally answer all such questions regarding all kinds of gods or devils or fairies or bigfoots or whatever. No for real dude...Shoot away. Though I will only answer if I feel like it.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

So, God as its creation joins IT there in eternity (somehow do not think so).

I'm not sure what your point is...earth is simply one location within the existence that is eternity - the physical realm & spiritual realm are equally real & exist in parallel with our existence here, not separate from it

Movement between realms cannot be accomplished physically, souls are able to however.

Satan is stuck in this realm for the time being because he's not going to voluntarily go to hell & he's not allowed in heaven.

Even if Satan were a part of God in some way, like even God having the Angel and Devil on his shoulders, that still seems like it may have little or a lot, to do with what Good and Evil may mean to and for us. We design our 'law', not that I know much about it, but loosely on the nature of 'good and evil' or right and wrong. So in a sense it might seem, that our political power, or business power, our judicial power, which all stems from our personal power, struggles to abide by and take part in actions of good and evil. If good and evil exist, as concepts, as potential actions and thus relations between objects, as abstraction, as temporal or eternal; then they do so objectively (i.e. life is good; you need to eat food to live; eating food is good), and/or subjectively (it is good to pay x amount of tax, person A must pay x amount of tax or that person is bad). Any main objective good requires some sacrifice; mainly the constant sacrifice to 'not be bad'.

Without law; good; equally ones life, was the sole expresser of 'law', good and evil, and good was 'do whatever you can possibly do to remain alive, and whatever else you felt like'.

It can potentially successfully be argued to relative degrees that that final expression still predominately holds true today. And certainly there are infinite ethical situations in which the nature of action and law reverts back to the primal and eternal, life is good, my life is how I know this, my life is good, nothing is more important than my life.

The situation is more and less quantities of the dual nature of that primal ultimate selfishness, and the sacrifice of that pure selfishness, for the potential order and goodness that comes from such thing (law, at all).

Has any bible scholar theorized about what God best desires for humankind's economic systems and goals?

What does God desire man to desire to come of their life?

What is good work to god?

Thus far, good work to man, has been work which has distanced us away from living like monkeys.

The nature of; quality of life.

In the system of good, it is supposed to be that one trades in their good work for quality of life.

What more can man want?

Well, the means of purchasing quality of life, is money.

well, what does this have to do with God and Satan, im not sure I went off topic I think...

but anyway;

It is possible God even sympathizes with the Devil, (maybe he ever gets jealous), maybe the totality and absolute nature of the perfect good that God represents is theoretically impossible and meaningless. Or like I mentioned, maybe the Devil is Gods dark side. The thing that is iffy, as all of this is, is that I am quite sure that the nature of order at all, is required for being. The devil must be made of out some patterns and regularities and law abiding substance, and it is the very fact of that, which is body, which is being, and it must be said too that I suppose body and being require deviations and change amongst the patterns and regularity, (chaos) or else it would just be a repeating pattern, a for some reason, maybe obvious reason/s, complexity is the name of the game, and I am wondering how complex things can get while utilizing only deviationless patterns and regularity. So I dont think the devil can desire pure chaos, because the meaning of such 'a thing' as pure chaos I dont know if it can even make sense, or ever amount to 'anything', in a sense of, ever amounting to the existence of body, being. And perhaps God cannot desire 'perfect order', because perfect order is motionless, timelessness (I am supposing). And so the nature of this battle between order and chaos, is the one that occurs on all levels of reality, in seemingly infinite varying degrees, right up to and right down to our most important level. Where we must experience first hand, report honestly to ourselves, and to history, our knowledge and relationship with that which is, 'whatever Good and Evil can be and mean', and how well our knowledge, reason, and action is backed up by what can be known, and what we know, and seemingly infinitely etc.

I have a hard time imagining that a supreme and ultimate intelligence would think it supremely and ultimately intelligent to determine the fate of an immortal soul in the span of such a finite lifetime, but what do I know. I can only judge of my self, I personally would not be convinced of lack of room to change.

If God would always forgive the Devil, than why wouldnt everyone just be the Devil, including God, do all the evil that can be done, and then immediately cast infinite forgiveness spell?


actually being afraid of not getting into paradise because of how many times you did or did not say the words in your head "god exists god exists god exists god exists" must not be what a supreme, divine creator would want its creation to do to show its glory for the goodness of life.



So is it like, God is a great builder with all the secrets of knowledge and physique, and Satan does not want to learn or care or worry about building and knowledge, but just wants to thrash about and have fun? Just feeling, and acting? A more short term approach, do whatever makes you feel good and happy?

Do whatever makes you feel good and happy; being the ultimate expression and statement of Goodness too, but with the caveat of '*unless, its killing and stealing and raping'.

God then is the imposing of rules, of agreeing to and obeying rules. For 'the good'? For the good of being, in a long term manner? Valuing being the most. Value being around other humans, which creates the values and goodnesses and qualities of living of society. Therefore, agreeing to value other peoples being, enough to sacrifice your ultimate primal desires, for, the good of the goodness greater than just your own.

I suppose then it is seen, the biggest problem we might have, is determining what actions God really might not be ok with and why? Boxing? Ice cream? Electricity? Mustaches? Beer? Non marital sex? Ballet? The homeless?

What does the Devil want, that he does not need to depend on Goodness to get/achieve?

And does that not matter, does not rules or meaning matter or apply, only the actual sensation itself, of physical information and the way it exists and moves, is that the ultimate value, and is it all about the numbers, and the proportions in relation to ones very exact being.

Does God and the Devil both desire Novelty? Just what of is where they differ? Do they agree on anything? infinite things?

Can this all be summed up as God being a baby building sandcastles and the Devil a baby that steps on them, eternally, and novel humans pop up and through their actions are determined whether they side with the builder or the destroyer?

originally posted by: coldkidc
a reply to: vethumanbeing

So, God as its creation joins IT there in eternity (somehow do not think so).

I'm not sure what your point is...earth is simply one location within the existence that is eternity - the physical realm & spiritual realm are equally real & exist in parallel with our existence here, not separate from it

Movement between realms cannot be accomplished physically, souls are able to however.

Satan is stuck in this realm for the time being because he's not going to voluntarily go to hell & he's not allowed in heaven.

This was regarding the idea of Satan and its relationship to its Larger creator force "God" that allowed the Satan being (to exist). How much do you know of the local of earth/if it is any more real than your subconscious dreamscapes/travels. There is no difference between the physical and non physical, they are the same. Movement between realms is possible because it is your eternal soul/spirit that accomplishes it. Physical matter is irrelevant, it moves as its own density permits or allowed into those other higher realms will allow (maybe need a key swipe card pre-pay).

People always seem to forget the free will aspect of god...Why is all of this evil ( what we perceive as evil ) happening in the world? Why is god allowing it? If he was so loving and merciful..blah, blah, blah...He created all self aware beings with free will....He wants you to want to have a relationship with him, not force you to...people can't seem to understand that fundamental aspect of it..Satan chose to try and overthrow God...The evil of the world is caused by Free Will of man. Its a 2 edged sword....

So to answer because you really don't have it right at all

" I thought God was about mercy regarding its creations "

To a limited extent yes that is correct, but you can not forsake God and expect mercy (this is what Satan did). Not how it works and not sure what lead you to that conclusion...a person has to first accept Jesus as your LORD and savior, confess all of your wrong doings, and ask for forgiveness whole-heartedly...you are not given any free passes in this life for willingly sinning and just going about your business.

" whatever they do is allowed "

Yeah...uhhh No ....While close examination of Romans Chaper 6 and 7 reveals that sin hijacked the 10 commandments in order to make people sin more you are not free to do as thou will...That is a satanic train of thought....
Aleister Crowley 101....I don't understand your comment about this being an " experimental " planet or what New Age philosophy that is but to an extent I could slightly agree but not likely in the same way you are thinking....

Sure I could be wrong and I think we can all agree that we al lsee the world and perceive it differently....I enjoy the debate either way...



a reply to: vethumanbeing

God did not kick any Spirits out of heaven. God is The Highest (energy/spirit) and they became lowered (fallen).

The Highest didn't kick them out, they simply fell to the lower, therefore forgiveness doesn't even have to be asked for because you can do no harm to God The Highest. Very low energies/spirits, told the others that The Highest hates the in order to try to keep them as low/fallen (spirits/energies). Humanity is also taught the same thing, that you are a low being and nothing you can do can change that ("all works are dirty rags). This is a lie. you can follow The Highest. You don't have to live in a low state of warmth/love and wisdom/light. You can increase and become closer to God/Highest which is infinite Warmth (love) and infinite Light (wisdom).

Just like in science (physics) where light and heat means more energy and darkness and coldness meand less; this is a reflection of Spirit,how The Highest is Heat (Love/Fire of Holy Spirit) and how The Highest is Light (Wisdom/Intelligence/Awareness/Life).

So are fallen spirits forgiven? No because they never harmed The Highest in any wy (impossibility) they simply fell (lowered).

Lowness of energy/spirit is lack. Highness is fulfillment and fullness. Greed ("love of money") is the root of all evil (lowness), because greed keeps a person feeling empty/unfulfilled as well as jealous, and judging others (it turns you impure focusing you on what everyone lacks/fails - a mind of lowness and impurity not of The Highest).

Gratitude is the root of all goodness . It keeps you focused on what IS good (praiseworthy) and away from empress towards fulfillment. "In everything give thanks". Have life abundantly. Be filled. To he who has more is given.

The lowness (sin/"darkness") wants to leave everyone feeling empty. Any Spirt can do this to be with The Highest but some very low/fallen choose ro stay low/fallen. It has nothing to do with God/Highest not forgiving (loving) them.


I tried my best to explain this with as few words as possible (editted many times). I hope this was a clear message.

Peace.

a reply to: arpgme

Gratitude is the root of all goodness . It keeps you focused on what IS good (praiseworthy) and away from empress towards fulfillment. "In everything give thanks". Have life abundantly. Be filled. To he who has more is given.

You did a good job explaining it. I'll add that there is a way to measure how thankful we are for what we have or don't have. Ask yourself, 'how content am I in my life?'
The goal is to be completely content no matter what your circumstances may be. Unshakeable, so to speak.

And all this chatter about angels get thrown out if heaven is nonsense if a person is picturing some natural occurrence. Consider the idea that when you express goodness then you are in heaven because heaven is the replicated Spirit of the True God in you. And if we don't express goodness then we don't abide in the Spirit.

Now reconsider...who is the angel we are referencing and how did they throw themselves out?