One of the biggest reasons i find the bible so hard to believe

a reply to: LongishLongo
I am a Christian and a newbee here... I find a problem Way before then my friend... I often beseech Him ,why would a loving father put that Bloody Tree in the garden to begin with..... as a parent I would never put a stumbling block that leads to death before my children.. I too have read many faith texts too. and I love the Apocryphal Texts. especially Enoch. I love reading the Bible.. although I know it is used as a tool on control, and not the way it was intended..
I have an open mind.. God doesn't like boxes, nor do I. I don't attend church either.. the hypocrisy made my skin crawl.....
I have many friends of different creeds. I delve into many different areas.
I enjoy the seeking of truth...

a reply to: LongishLongo

Interesting.. What I find hard to believe is Adam and his kids lived to be several hundred years old.. Why are we not living to several hundred years?

originally posted by: LongishLongo
Let me just start this by saying;
I dont mean to offend any christians, or any other religions for that matter. Being most of my family christians, and church goers (me an ex christian, church attendant myself)
I can point out a million contradictories, flaws etc. With the bible, but one that i never see people talk about is the fact that:
God made man in his image, he sees and knows everything. He hears every prayer, he knows every sin you make, will make etc. Etc. So why would he put you on earth, knowing exactly what sins you will commit why you're here? Then after you live you're life, throw you in hell for doing exactly what he planned on you doing to begin with? Doing exactly what he knew you were going to do, before you ever done it, before he even made you, then turn around and punish you for it?
But for the christians that will try to convert me to thy lord lol i have read both, the old and new testament. Even about half of the Quran, and just like you believe, i dont bash you for it. Just as i dont believe, i dont expect to be bashed for my belief either. Just openly speaking on one of my views on religion

First of all, you were never a Christian, you might have lived in a family that followed Christian tradition, but you were never personally a Christian, so you can't claim to be an ex-Christian. Let's get that out of the way right now.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

God must be real enough to you that you invoked Him, you are new at this game. But no one is bashing you, but hey, if you want to try Islam, they aren't as graceful as Christians to allow you to leave Islam. What's the penalty for apostasy in Islam? Oh yes, death. What's the penalty for apostasy in Christianity? None. What's the penalty of apostasy in Judaism? Your mother makes you feel guilty.

So you read the OT and the NT? Why did you call them by separate names knowing that both together are called The Bible?

a reply to: WarminIndy

What's the penalty for apostasy in Christianity? None.

Xtianity does indeed have a penalty for apostasy. "God" just waits til you die for the sentence to begin. Which varies, depending on the sect of Xtianity one is beholden to.

a reply to: LongishLongo

So why would he put you on earth, knowing exactly what sins you will commit why you're here?

Your answer lies in the parable of the two debtors:

Here

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
a reply to: crazyewok

Then you should read up on the books that were not put into the bible....

I dont cause

They were not put in the bible/.


They were left out for a reason IE they ere written by apostates.

originally posted by: LongishLongo
Let me just start this by saying;
I dont mean to offend any christians, or any other religions for that matter.

No offense taken! Hope you're not offended by my thoughts either!

I can point out a million contradictories, flaws etc. With the bible,

No surprise really...it's an amalgamation of many stories

but one that i never see people talk about is the fact that:
God made man in his image, he sees and knows everything. He hears every prayer, he knows every sin you make, will make etc. Etc. So why would he put you on earth, knowing exactly what sins you will commit why you're here?

Popular question actually. The ultimate expression of Love is the gift of free will. He loves you so much that despite knowing the choices you will make he gives you free will.

Then after you live you're life, throw you in hell for doing exactly what he planned on you doing to begin with?

He didn't 'plan' your actions, you had free will, remember? Besides that Hell is a modern construct really. Ultimately you don't get into Heaven. That's worse than any Hell to be honest.


Imagine for a moment the worst mass murderer you have ever heard of. Like a guy that killed millions with his orders and even killed people personally with his own hand for sport. God still loves him, for he is God's creation. Can you imagine the love so powerful it never dies no matter what you do? It's difficult because we don't love unconditionally like that.

Now imagine the murderer gets caught and locked up, converts to Christianity, confesses his sins and honestly repents his actions. Now, not only does God still love him, he even lets him into Heaven!!! What kind of a God would let a guy like that into heaven??? Well, an unconditionally loving God, that's who.

The concept of 'love' is pretty hard to understand at these extremes.

a reply to: pheonix358
Speaking only as devil's advocate (I have no recognised faith), it's not simply about a sadistic desire to make you suffer, but about practising self-control.

If you gave in to every vice, you wouldn't be a very effectively good person.

Think about the work of doctors and nurses at A&E, out-of-hours doctors, working bank holidays, Christmas, etc.

To achieve goodness involves a certain level of self-sacrifice.

a reply to: crazyewok
Jesus mentions "everlasting punishment" where there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth".

You may be getting mixed up with Purgatory, which is an invention of the RCC.

a reply to: LongishLongo

Hell is a miss translation from a jewish word called sheol meaning death like being asleep and having no dreams.
It actually means being seperated from god jahovah.
it got translated into greek and became hades.
and then into english and became hell
picking up scary controll stories along the way.
God loves you and will not burn you in a lake of fire forever.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: WarminIndy

What's the penalty for apostasy in Christianity? None.

Xtianity does indeed have a penalty for apostasy. "God" just waits til you die for the sentence to begin. Which varies, depending on the sect of Xtianity one is beholden to.

Not the once saved always saved crowd, or the predestination crowd. And yes, you can be a "good Christian" and still tick God off to the point you get tossed into the abyss.

Depends on what church. But the penalty for apostasy? None. You are free to come and go as you please, no one is hanging you by your heels, dipping you into the lava of "be a Christian my way or else".

Excuse me if I am wrong, but aren't there as many atheists who prefer "my way or the highway" and don't they go around skewering everyone who isn't atheist? Watch for it...here it comes.....

(Yes, atheists have that attitude and exert their opinions forcefully and try to make people feel stupid or ashamed if they believe in God)

originally posted by: sweets777
a reply to: LongishLongo

Hell is a miss translation from a jewish word called sheol meaning death like being asleep and having no dreams.
It actually means being seperated from god jahovah.
it got translated into greek and became hades.
and then into english and became hell
picking up scary controll stories along the way.
God loves you and will not burn you in a lake of fire forever.

Actually, the English word hell comes from the Norse Goddess Hel, the goddess of the fiery underworld.

a reply to: IndependentOpinion

If you believe that He made you, knowing that you will sin, then you are misunderstanding a few things. He gave us free will. Because without free will, love is not love. We were created for fellowship with Him.

He can forsee the options that will be presented to us, but not which option we will deside on when using our free will.

if that is the case, then he is quite simply not omniscient. and he isnt "conveniently" omniscient anymore than i am "convenient" psychic. that applies to all of his other skills and powers that are only useful when he wants something from us, not the other way around.

thanks for clarifying.

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
a reply to: [post=18889868]LongishLongo[/p

Please tell me how you figure this, if he let his one and only son be crucified for us to sin? Lol are we talking about the same bible here?

How the hell could i never have been a christian? A christian is someone who worships jesus christ am i right? Which i did for the first 18 years of my life
a reply to: WarminIndy

a reply to: LongishLongo

I think free will is the answer to most questions about God's will. I've often wondered why, if there is a God, he lets us loose like a lone kid at walmart

The biggest reason for me is that they want to force feed me what they think is right just because they read it in a book. If I don't follow their line of thinking they get violent. That's the biggest reason for me. If they didn't we wouldn't be fighting over the # all the time.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: IndependentOpinion

If you believe that He made you, knowing that you will sin, then you are misunderstanding a few things. He gave us free will. Because without free will, love is not love. We were created for fellowship with Him.

He can forsee the options that will be presented to us, but not which option we will deside on when using our free will.

if that is the case, then he is quite simply not omniscient. and he isnt "conveniently" omniscient anymore than i am "convenient" psychic. that applies to all of his other skills and powers that are only useful when he wants something from us, not the other way around.

thanks for clarifying.

But you aren't omniscient, so how can you judge the omniscience of God?

You don't know it all, and if you don't know it all, then how do you know God isn't omniscient?

originally posted by: LongishLongo
How the hell could i never have been a christian? A christian is someone who worships jesus christ am i right? Which i did for the first 18 years of my life
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nope, one can worship their travelocity garden gnome, does it make them gnomish? Certainly not. Confession comes from the heart and is spoken.

You don't seem to have made any confession of faith, only that you were in a family that did. Individually you don't seem to have believed anything, you just did what everyone else around you did. That is not being a Christian, it is just being a follower of the peer group.

Being a Christian means more than just worship and if you were a Christian, really, then you would know that. But you weren't really a Christian, so you didn't know. We will let that one slide. But really, you weren't really a Christian.

You were just some kid who sat in some church and did what everyone else did, not that you really believed in it. And Christianity means you really believe in it.

Man can condone anything. Don't be surprised when another man does the same. Respecting human life should be a universal law. We can disagree but don't get mad when I do. If you can do that, we're good. Most of the teachings that come from religion, instills a moral compass. If only you could embrace that aspect instead of the hate, the world would be a better place. You get to keep the freedom of thinking for yourself and the religion you so deeply love.

The extreme religious types who resort to violence are going away by the very thing they embrace. I'm sure you can see the logic in that.

originally posted by: LongishLongo
How the hell could i never have been a christian? A christian is someone who worships jesus christ am i right? Which i did for the first 18 years of my life
a reply to: WarminIndy

Yes you were are Christian however what is important is now you are not a Christian.Christianity is not truth.Christians do not know the creator God they believe in the God of "their religion" and that's all it is.Christianity is death and has no life in it.It is a religion (with a multitude of sects) that worships and believes in a false God.