Is Turkey really a friend to the west ? The evidence is murky at best.

I'm going to try and tie a few things together here so bear with me and lets see if this all makes any sense.

news.yahoo.com...

Anti Islamic immigration sentiment is rising all across Europe in response to ever more frequent vilence and people are voting more conservative at each successive election the past 5 years.

So in Merkels speech yesterday she took a very strong stand that Islam belongs in Germany, but remains opposed to EU membership for Turkey.

en.cihan.com.tr...

The Turkish Prime Minister however believes Turkey should be admitted to the EU as soon as possible, and says it would ease tensions.

“If no obstacles were put in front of Turkey's EU membership, be sure that such cultural tensions would not be as high as today,” Davutoğlu said upon a question asking about the effect of Islamophobic attacks to Turkey's accession process.

He also reiterated his remarks, suggesting that Turkey's EU membership could help balance the clash of ideas.

“Our membership narrows the area of extremists. If there is no Muslim country in the EU, a different picture may appear,” he said.

Davutoglu said it was important to fight all forms of Islamophobia in Germany. Speaking later in Berlin, Davutoglu said that if Turkey was accepted in future as a European Union member it would send a powerful message of how Muslims and Christians could live together in peace in Europe.

"If Turkey, as a secular and moderate country is not accepted into the EU because of cultural prejudice, that will give a negative message to European people," he said.

That almost sounds like a very subtle threat... something akin to 'if you don't let us in, you are racist'. And in light of recent events, why should the EU not tread very carefully and be thorough in it's assessment of Turkey?

Let's start with that claim of "Turkey as a secular and moderate country" shall we? Well a quick trip to wikipedia says that Turkey's population is between 96.4% and 99.8% Muslim, and in fact less than .2% Christian/Jewish. Hmm, not quite a shining example of Christians and Muslims living in harmony is it?

But wait! you might ask, why are there so few Christians and Jews in present-day Turkey, was it always like this? No, actually, they were all slaughtered, and mostly in the last 100 years!

See: www.serfes.org...

During 1894-1923 the Ottoman Empire conducted a policy of Genocide of the Christian population living within its extensive territory. The Sultan, Abdul Hamid, first put forth an official governmental policy of genocide against the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire in 1894.

Systematic massacres took place in 1894-1896 when Abdul savagely killed 300,000 Armenians throughout the provinces. Massacres recurred, and in 1909 government troops killed, in the towns of Adana alone, over 20,000 Christian Armenians.

When WW1 broke out the The Ottoman Empire was ruled by the "Young Turk" dictatorship which allied itself with Germany. Turkish government decided to eliminate the whole of the Christian population of Greeks, Armenians, Syrians and Nestorians. The government slogan, "Turkey for the Turks", served to encourage Turkish civilians on a policy of ethnic cleansing.

It continued, and got worse even:
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Please read at least the first couple paragraphs of the above 3 links



So that explains why there aren't many Christians and Jews in modern Turkey. But the Prime Minister also claimed that Turkey is a modern secular country. So is it? Lets check back with that Wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, the current Turkish system was founded on a secular basis, but in actuality, what is it today?

Despite its official secularism, the Turkish government includes the state agency of the Presidency of Religious Affairs (Turkish: Diyanet İşleri Başkanlığı),[30] whose purpose is stated by law "to execute the works concerning the beliefs, worship, and ethics of Islam, enlighten the public about their religion, and administer the sacred worshiping places".[31] The institution, commonly known simply as Diyanet, operates 77,500 mosques, builds new ones, pays the salaries of imams, and approves all sermons given in mosques in Turkey.[32] The Presidency of Religious Affairs finances only Sunni Muslim worship in Turkey. For example, Alevi, Câferî (mostly Azeris), and Bektashi Muslims (mostly Turkmen) participate in the financing of the mosques and the salaries of Sunni imams by paying taxes to the state, while their places of worship, which are not officially recognized, do not receive any state funding. The Presidency of Religious Affairs' budget rose from USD $0.9 billion for the year 2006 to $2.5 billion in 2012.

With more than 100,000 employees, the Presidency of Religious Affairs has been described as state within the state.[48] Its budget is compared with the budgets of other state departments as such:
Diyanet's Budget in 2013 - Source : TBMM, Turkish Parliament, 2013.

1.6 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of the Interior[49]
1.8 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Health[49]
1.9 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Industry, Science and Technology[49]
2.4 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Environment and Urban Planning[49]
2.5 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Culture and Tourism[49]
2.9 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs[49]
3.4 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Economy[49]
3.8 times larger than the budget of the Ministry of Development[49]
4.6 times larger than the budget allocated to MIT – Secret Services [49]
5,0 times larger than the budget allocated to the Department of Emergency and Disaster Management[49]
7.7 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources[49]
9.1 times larger than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Customs and Trade[49]
10.7 times greater than the budget allocated to Coast Guard[49]
21.6 times greater than the budget allocated to the Ministry of the European Union[49]
242 times larger than the budget for the National Security Council[49]
268 times more important than the budget allocated to the Ministry of Public Employee[49]

So I would ask you to decide for yourself if Turkey is truly a secular state.



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Now back to the matter of Turkey being a friend to the West or not...

This is the very same Turkey (NATO member) that refused to fight ISIS, and even refused to allow forces to operate from bases within Turkey for strikes on ISIS... until a LOT of western pressure built up and they finally gave in.

This is also the same Turkey who has been repeatedly accused of secretly supplying ISIS and/or allowing supply convoys to cross the border in NGO vehicles: www.dw.de...
Remember Serena Shim mysteriously died quite quickly after reporting on this same story and then being accused of "spying' by the Turkish government: rt.com...

And this is the same Turkey that seems to be some kind of Jihadi-Superhighway where they can freely and easily cross into Syria whenever they please. Coming and going to the UK, France and back and forth for terrorism courses over the past few years.

Even Coulibaly's (the Paris supermarket gunman) wife has already been confirmed to have traveled to Turkey and easily slipped across the border, disappearing into Syria.... www.nbcnews.com...


So hmmmm Turkey... Is this really a country that should be under consideration for membership in the EU??

Membership in the EU would mean free roam across Europe for all Turkish citizens, and easy entry from Turkey into neighboring EU nations, while Turkey cannot (or will not?) even secure it's own borders to stop Jihadis crossing back and forth, despite the majority of these individuals being on various watch lists around the world...

Or am I just a racist for believing this will cause nothing but further problems for Europe and an exponential increase in violent attacks?



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Before this current Pm yes they were lead by secular people... This current nut though no not to be trusted.

we have our own war against Islam.i am sorry but i cannot see we are going to win. but at least we are fighting.

our big problem is ignorant people supporting government. they all brainwashed. government supporting Islam, also we are thinking maybe our government is supporting Isis.

our brainwashed people not all bad. they don't know whats Islam/real Islam. %99 of them didn't read Qur'an. they believe another Islam which does not exist in Qur'an.

Isis is real Islam.

our problem in Turkey that easy one.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

Turkey might not seam as a good friend. But i can tell you this NATO will never kick out Turkey.

The US and UK will never let the other EU nation do anything to Turkey.

To the US/NATO geo-politcal map. Turkey is its most important door to EuroAsia.

Turkish people have old history in earth. We was not Muslim before meet Arabs. Sadly they #ed up our army and they convert us to Islam.
Most people in Turkey don't know this information.
Brainwash starting in school. They are teaching us, "we select Islam because its truth".

As long as the foreign aid continues of course they are our friends.. Old saying, "No money no honey"! True the world over, IMO!

Turkey has been going through some changes these last 30 years or so. The guys I know who were stationed there had much good to say about the military in years past... Now it would seem the Saudi brand of Islam is gaining a major foothold.. Which IMO is not good ... Just hearsay sorry

Science is your friend, religions is not. A Country supporting an religion cannot be friendly. But what about people living in that country? Is all bad?
Our real problem is ignorance and religions. Not Turkey or any another country.

originally posted by: 8675309jenny
Anti Islamic immigration sentiment is rising all across Europe in response to ever more frequent vilence and people are voting more conservative at each successive election the past 5 years.

It is important to notice that Conservatives here in Germany are not at all "anti-islamic immigration", and I believe this is true for Consevatives in Europe in general. The extreme right wing is.

Conservatives here know (and commit to the fact) that our nation is a secular state with freedom of religion as a guaranteed constitutional right, and that a islamic part of 5% of the population is not *Überfremdung*.

That being said - I agree that alot of work is necessary in order for Turkey to be in line with the standards prevailing in the Member States of the European Union.

a reply to: aytacaksel

The same way The Turks forced the conversation agaisnt the Bosnians whom were never Muslim, Islam in the Balkans didn't exist till the ottoman empire.


On Topic this wasn't a surprise Turkey has being helping terrorists since the conflict started in 2011, Assad's government knew Turkish movements and why wouldn't they do? they are next door.

The only reason NATO is still keeping as its puppet is simple, they want more territory.

Forever they been 'discussing' whether Turkey should be a part of the EU. After all they are a Member of NATO, right?

Not just a Partner.

In Turkeys case they are strategically located enough to be desirable from a military standpoint but not (European) enough to be considered for membership in the EU.

Amusing that some will question Turkeys loyalty to the West when Turkey is the most active member of NATO as far as allowing US bases on their soil from which NATO jets have been pounding the ME for decades.

a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

I agree with you, Islam is spread like a cancer.

I just cannot understand statement of friendly or hostile country, because of their government.
%42 of Turkish people vote this government.
Other %58 is unfriendly too? Going to kill me?

Religion and Money is problem in this world. We have to fix it without kill each other.

One of the reasons they are trying to cause trouble in Syria with ISIS is so that the gas pipeline can be built so that Turkey would get the gas hub. Funny how now it is Russia who is gonna build a pipeline to Turkey so they get what they wanted. Also keeping causing trouble for the Kurd:s is always an added bonus since Turkey do not want a free Kurdistan.

But US and the west is not better with them trying to remove Assad for Saudi Arabian/Turkish/Corporate interests. Libya also come to mind where a "democratic Sunni based revolution" happened helped by the west when the Petrodollar was in danger and that county got destroyed and are now controlled by the Sunni Wahhabi groups.

If US wanted ISIS bombed then they would have been bombed and destroyed long ago. ISIS is being used as an excuse.

originally posted by: aytacaksel
we have our own war against Islam.i am sorry but i cannot see we are going to win. but at least we are fighting.

our big problem is ignorant people supporting government. they all brainwashed. government supporting Islam, also we are thinking maybe our government is supporting Isis.

our brainwashed people not all bad. they don't know whats Islam/real Islam. %99 of them didn't read Qur'an. they believe another Islam which does not exist in Qur'an.

Isis is real Islam.

our problem in Turkey that easy one.

I agree that it seems some people who follow Islam are changing it for the better than really reading what the Quran say. One muslim on this site gave me this picture.



This is non duality parable. Lets look at what the Quran say
corpus.quran.com...

One English translation is this:

Sahih International: Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

This verse anyone can use to justify murder by saying the soul I want to kill have caused corruption in the land. It is not a pure non duality parable even if it tries to look like it is. But we do have the Sufi mystic Rumi (another view of Islam instead of the Sunni) that did teach pure non duality.

I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Magian nor Muslim, I am not from east or west, not from land or sea,

originally posted by: aytacaksel
a reply to: Agent_USA_Supporter

I agree with you, Islam is spread like a cancer.

I just cannot understand statement of friendly or hostile country, because of their government.
%42 of Turkish people vote this government.
Other %58 is unfriendly too? Going to kill me?

Religion and Money is problem in this world. We have to fix it without kill each other.

I'm not in favor of killing anyone over basic politics, just pointing out that Turkey I feel is playing both sides.

I feel like if Turkey joins EU in the near future, it will open the floodgates for fanatics to flow all across Europe, and make the IRA days in Ireland look calm.

By the way aytacaksel, I appreciate your first-hand info and experience shared here!

a reply to: LittleByLittle

The question then becomes : who is really guilty ? Who is really innocent ? Who perceives who as their enemy ?
In this day and age, the age of information where nothing really is like it seems to be, where information is distorted and can be manipulated to infinity, how are we to know ?

originally posted by: gosseyn
a reply to: LittleByLittle

The question then becomes : who is really guilty ? Who is really innocent ? Who perceives who as their enemy ?
In this day and age, the age of information where nothing really is like it seems to be, where information is distorted and can be manipulated to infinity, how are we to know ?

Those who are Sunni moderate could create an offshoot from the fundamentalist so that the fundamentalist do not have a place to hide like protestant leaving Catholic going for true golden rule and non duality.

Being tolerant and saying everything in Quran is perfect is like saying to an alcoholic that he is not alcoholic just to make him feel better. Better to tell people there is a problem here and you need to take care of it and try to support the people who want to take care of it.

Give me a Martin Luther King personality or several to bring change.

Can't say whether or not the whole place are friends or enemies but to be honest, nearly every Turkish person I ever met (most studying here) were arrogant and anti-American. What gives? Take advantage of the education, no risk of getting lashed but still feel the need to hate on the people feeding you?

But we can't lump an entire country into one basket, I'm sure there's Turkish people who like America, I just never met any.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

Well, I've been to Turkey and they are a warm and friendly people. They are the "nice" muslins and treat their religion from the peaceful perspective. Not say say it's an AMAZINGLY beautiful country and safe to go to.

This currently President/government is a disapointment for the Turkish people.

By the way: I am Brazilian so I don't have any hidden agenda behind what I am writting.

And concerning the Wikipedia and the past of Turkey... Not very fair.....Try the history of Germany, England, US, Japan and many others......

...Modern Turkey is an evolved Country as are the above mentioned ones.

We shoukd stop This Black or white, Cowboy or Indians, maniqueism approach. This only serve the ptb interests of power and benefits.

WE as civilisation are more complex and better than that.