I'd Like To See Your Debunker Credentials, Please.

a reply to: Puppytoven

Simply most ufo evidence relies on photography or video and many members here are into that , I have be using SLR cameras for 35 years now and like other experienced photographers we KNOW what to look for and now in this digital age exif data embedded in the image is useful and can help catch out people making things up or exaggerating.

I am sceptical because I do believe that out there other life exists, does it have the ability or is it close enough to visit I don't think so, but if I see an image/video I think is real I will back it but if I think I see BS then I will say so!

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

I can only speak from my personal experience. Which something crazy/cool started happening and I've gone through a lot of steps to both determine if I was losing it or it really was happening. Because I know how things sound and I wanted the mental illness agrument off the table immediately. There's no point in going throough the scientific method if it's a hallucination. Okay, I'm sane according to 2 different doctors so I will proceed. After going through the all the steps, and freak more than a couple of my friends out, I start trying to get "help" to continue this research. One of the places I came was here. Immediate ridicule and told I was crazy and all the usual attempts to paint me as unstable. The doctors I went to were called quacks and it was ridiculous. All this judgement and insult by people who don't even know me or the steps I took to insure It was (and is) real. It was then I realized that "debunking" has become a slang term for being an a--hole. So anything I learn I don't waste my time posting it or posing questions here. If I have a question or theory, I go to the experts directly. The difference between an expert and a majority of what I see here is people who are really on a quest for knowledge and understanding aren't usually rude and are willing to consider the possibilty. Because they've seen some crazy sh-t themselves and know the only way to understand is to consider what seems insane. Because people who have seen this kind of stuff tend to be humbled by the experience. Understanding how little we understand.

a reply to: wmd_2008

And why don't you think so? Because they are too far? Just because we can't bend time and space doesn't mean others can't. And if you are from a higher dimension then time and space here would be like a drawing to us. As far as the photography and vids are concerned. Keep in mind that NASA has been know to tamper with photos. And governments also have been known to hack into a researchers files and alter it to look fake. And those of you who have done research -- I mean really gotten deep into it -- you know what i am talking about.

that's the problem with this site- there is never a definitive moment. this site perpetuates the stalemate between witnesses and debunkers. actually it's more of a triangle stalemate between witnesses, debunkers and hoaxers. this site may claim to deny ignorance but it also does a good job of lacking convictions. Maybe it's not their job I guess.


a reply to: Puppytoven

originally posted by: Puppytoven
Comedian Russel Brand sums it up by saying, "My cat doesn't believe in the internet. That doesn't mean there is no internet."

If cats are truly unable to comprehend, and therefore don't believe in the Internet, and we're the cats in that scenario, what makes you so special? Why are you the cat who believes in the Internet?

originally posted by: bottleslingguy
that's the problem with this site- there is never a definitive moment. this site perpetuates the stalemate between witnesses and debunkers. actually it's more of a triangle stalemate between witnesses, debunkers and hoaxers. this site may claim to deny ignorance but it also does a good job of lacking convictions. Maybe it's not their job I guess.


a reply to: Puppytoven

If you mean that nothing is ever proven to be alien, then you're right.

There have been things that may remain "unexplained", but unexplained does not necessarily mean alien. And the sightings that include eyewitness accounts of craft that supposedly have characteristics that seem impossible are never really verifiable.

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: cuckooold

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: amazing
There are quite a few people on ATS that will yell "Rocks!" or tell yell fake, fraud or scammer, before even looking at any of the evidence.

I always get a chuckle out of those people. To debunk something without taking a real look at the evidence is the essence of stupidity.

Perhaps you'd care to cite the actual evidence (not claims, but actual evidence) and exactly what it proves.

Rocks on mars are the best, they'll say...here's an anomaly and then the debunker will yell rock. Sure it could be a rock or a fossil or some mineral that could help future colonists or mining missions...but to yell rock? LOL My response is how much fun these debunkers are a at Geological conferences or events. You can imagine.

Then we'll talk about the possiblity of Aliens coming to Earth and the first response is always, that it's impossible. But that is based on our technology. Going to the moon was impossible a century ago. What might be possible a century from now, a million years from now?

Let's deny ignorance shall we?

Actually, if someone claims there's a coffin, or a jet engine, or a kettle, or whatever, I think 'yelling rock' is quite simply the only viable answer. If one was to accept many of the claims laid out, it would seem that Mars is a junkyard for cast-off Earth crap, or there was an Earthlike civilisation on Mars that has left detritus just about everywhere.

However, some are looking at these 'rocks' in a scientific context, and there may just be the possibility that there is/has been microbial life on Mars. There was a news article today, and I authored a thread regarding just that.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And yes, this is from photos, which seems to contradict your claims.

But you should also be open to some of the opposing views and theories. If there was microbial life on mars, billions of years ago, and Mars was full of water and had an atmosphere and a reasonable temperature, you could theorize that intelligent life evolved on Mars. The testable part of that theory, entails looking closely at some of these anomalies, just as an archaeologist would here on earth but without the hands on the ground, only the pictures...that's all we have.

That's the problem with the "...All I see is Rocks!" crowd. You wouldn't yell that at an archaeological dig sight, here on earth would you?

Microbial life would have little reason to emulate Egyptian architecture.

And when you look closely at some of those "anomalies" they are not so anomalous. Case in point, the face, cydonia pyramids. Doesn't take hands on the ground to conclude that there isn't a single dead terrestrial rat or bigfoot on the surface, or a "Celtic Cross" the size of a phillips head screw on a rock. The anomaly hunters see everything from human legs to iguanas in the rubble. It's little wonder they are met with instant skepticism.

But you see, you're just as bad as the mindless debunkers in this case. You said....Microbial life would have little reason to emulate the egyptians....and then you said anomaly hunters see everything ....

Look, I said it is possible that a highly advanced civilization could have evolved billions of years ago and then died off...most everything, if they did build anything would be covered with dirt, sand etc...So just like an archeologist, we look for signs of something...statues, carvings, tools, fossils...it's very possible all these things exist on Mars. That's why we look at these anomalies. I don't claim that everything is everything and definitely something. But some of these pictures..wow! If only we had boots on the ground there really examining this stuff. And maybe there is nothing there, but...think of the possibilities. Secondly, you should not lump everyone who's interested in this stuff into one category.

Perhaps, Egyptian society was based on a civilization on Mars. maybe not...its Just a Hypothesis. I never said that microbial life would create anything. You're flippant remarks and casual put downs of my post, show that you aren't interested in looking at anything or joining in any meaningful discussion about Mars anomalies..your mind is already made up that there is nothing there.

Why so close minded?

a reply to: draknoir2

And when you look closely at some of those "anomalies" they are not so anomalous. Case in point, the face, cydonia pyramids. Doesn't take hands on the ground to conclude that there isn't a single dead terrestrial rat or bigfoot on the surface, or a "Celtic Cross" the size of a phillips head screw on a rock. The anomaly hunters see everything from human legs to iguanas in the rubble. It's little wonder they are met with instant skepticism.

Martian bigfoot is real

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: cuckooold

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: amazing
There are quite a few people on ATS that will yell "Rocks!" or tell yell fake, fraud or scammer, before even looking at any of the evidence.

I always get a chuckle out of those people. To debunk something without taking a real look at the evidence is the essence of stupidity.

Perhaps you'd care to cite the actual evidence (not claims, but actual evidence) and exactly what it proves.

Rocks on mars are the best, they'll say...here's an anomaly and then the debunker will yell rock. Sure it could be a rock or a fossil or some mineral that could help future colonists or mining missions...but to yell rock? LOL My response is how much fun these debunkers are a at Geological conferences or events. You can imagine.

Then we'll talk about the possiblity of Aliens coming to Earth and the first response is always, that it's impossible. But that is based on our technology. Going to the moon was impossible a century ago. What might be possible a century from now, a million years from now?

Let's deny ignorance shall we?

Actually, if someone claims there's a coffin, or a jet engine, or a kettle, or whatever, I think 'yelling rock' is quite simply the only viable answer. If one was to accept many of the claims laid out, it would seem that Mars is a junkyard for cast-off Earth crap, or there was an Earthlike civilisation on Mars that has left detritus just about everywhere.

However, some are looking at these 'rocks' in a scientific context, and there may just be the possibility that there is/has been microbial life on Mars. There was a news article today, and I authored a thread regarding just that.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And yes, this is from photos, which seems to contradict your claims.

But you should also be open to some of the opposing views and theories. If there was microbial life on mars, billions of years ago, and Mars was full of water and had an atmosphere and a reasonable temperature, you could theorize that intelligent life evolved on Mars. The testable part of that theory, entails looking closely at some of these anomalies, just as an archaeologist would here on earth but without the hands on the ground, only the pictures...that's all we have.

That's the problem with the "...All I see is Rocks!" crowd. You wouldn't yell that at an archaeological dig sight, here on earth would you?

Microbial life would have little reason to emulate Egyptian architecture.

And when you look closely at some of those "anomalies" they are not so anomalous. Case in point, the face, cydonia pyramids. Doesn't take hands on the ground to conclude that there isn't a single dead terrestrial rat or bigfoot on the surface, or a "Celtic Cross" the size of a phillips head screw on a rock. The anomaly hunters see everything from human legs to iguanas in the rubble. It's little wonder they are met with instant skepticism.

But you see, you're just as bad as the mindless debunkers in this case. You said....Microbial life would have little reason to emulate the egyptians....and then you said anomaly hunters see everything ....

Look, I said it is possible that a highly advanced civilization could have evolved billions of years ago and then died off...most everything, if they did build anything would be covered with dirt, sand etc...So just like an archeologist, we look for signs of something...statues, carvings, tools, fossils...it's very possible all these things exist on Mars. That's why we look at these anomalies. I don't claim that everything is everything and definitely something. But some of these pictures..wow! If only we had boots on the ground there really examining this stuff. And maybe there is nothing there, but...think of the possibilities. Secondly, you should not lump everyone who's interested in this stuff into one category.

Perhaps, Egyptian society was based on a civilization on Mars. maybe not...its Just a Hypothesis. I never said that microbial life would create anything. You're flippant remarks and casual put downs of my post, show that you aren't interested in looking at anything or joining in any meaningful discussion about Mars anomalies..your mind is already made up that there is nothing there.

Why so close minded?

Am I just as bad? Or am I just as GOOD?!!

I must be open minded for you to read my thoughts so deeply.


Here's the thing - when you base a theory upon low resolution, outdated photos which have recently been updated with crystal clear hi resolution photos showing not a single architectural structure, then the problem is with the theory, not the unconvinced.

And why is the prospect of microbial life not "amazing" enough for you?

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: cuckooold

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: amazing
There are quite a few people on ATS that will yell "Rocks!" or tell yell fake, fraud or scammer, before even looking at any of the evidence.

I always get a chuckle out of those people. To debunk something without taking a real look at the evidence is the essence of stupidity.

Perhaps you'd care to cite the actual evidence (not claims, but actual evidence) and exactly what it proves.

Rocks on mars are the best, they'll say...here's an anomaly and then the debunker will yell rock. Sure it could be a rock or a fossil or some mineral that could help future colonists or mining missions...but to yell rock? LOL My response is how much fun these debunkers are a at Geological conferences or events. You can imagine.

Then we'll talk about the possiblity of Aliens coming to Earth and the first response is always, that it's impossible. But that is based on our technology. Going to the moon was impossible a century ago. What might be possible a century from now, a million years from now?

Let's deny ignorance shall we?

Actually, if someone claims there's a coffin, or a jet engine, or a kettle, or whatever, I think 'yelling rock' is quite simply the only viable answer. If one was to accept many of the claims laid out, it would seem that Mars is a junkyard for cast-off Earth crap, or there was an Earthlike civilisation on Mars that has left detritus just about everywhere.

However, some are looking at these 'rocks' in a scientific context, and there may just be the possibility that there is/has been microbial life on Mars. There was a news article today, and I authored a thread regarding just that.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And yes, this is from photos, which seems to contradict your claims.

But you should also be open to some of the opposing views and theories. If there was microbial life on mars, billions of years ago, and Mars was full of water and had an atmosphere and a reasonable temperature, you could theorize that intelligent life evolved on Mars. The testable part of that theory, entails looking closely at some of these anomalies, just as an archaeologist would here on earth but without the hands on the ground, only the pictures...that's all we have.

That's the problem with the "...All I see is Rocks!" crowd. You wouldn't yell that at an archaeological dig sight, here on earth would you?

Microbial life would have little reason to emulate Egyptian architecture.

And when you look closely at some of those "anomalies" they are not so anomalous. Case in point, the face, cydonia pyramids. Doesn't take hands on the ground to conclude that there isn't a single dead terrestrial rat or bigfoot on the surface, or a "Celtic Cross" the size of a phillips head screw on a rock. The anomaly hunters see everything from human legs to iguanas in the rubble. It's little wonder they are met with instant skepticism.

But you see, you're just as bad as the mindless debunkers in this case. You said....Microbial life would have little reason to emulate the egyptians....and then you said anomaly hunters see everything ....

Look, I said it is possible that a highly advanced civilization could have evolved billions of years ago and then died off...most everything, if they did build anything would be covered with dirt, sand etc...So just like an archeologist, we look for signs of something...statues, carvings, tools, fossils...it's very possible all these things exist on Mars. That's why we look at these anomalies. I don't claim that everything is everything and definitely something. But some of these pictures..wow! If only we had boots on the ground there really examining this stuff. And maybe there is nothing there, but...think of the possibilities. Secondly, you should not lump everyone who's interested in this stuff into one category.

Perhaps, Egyptian society was based on a civilization on Mars. maybe not...its Just a Hypothesis. I never said that microbial life would create anything. You're flippant remarks and casual put downs of my post, show that you aren't interested in looking at anything or joining in any meaningful discussion about Mars anomalies..your mind is already made up that there is nothing there.

Why so close minded?

Am I just as bad? Or am I just as GOOD?!!

I must be open minded for you to read my thoughts so deeply.


Here's the thing - when you base a theory upon low resolution, outdated photos which have recently been updated with crystal clear hi resolution photos showing not a single architectural structure, then the problem is with the theory, not the unconvinced.

And why is the prospect of microbial life not "amazing" enough for you?

That is amazing, the microbial life. I love that. I still don't think that invalidates my theory. I love the hi res pics...just keep an open mind is all I ask and take a good look...rocks, of course, doesn't work, as they could be signs of valuable resources... I am also fascinated by the prospect of colonizing mars and mining it for resources, regardless of whether we find any signs of evolved life there.

I have an open mind to the possibility that we'll never find any evidence of evolved life or anything, are you as open minded to the possibility that we might?

a reply to: Puppytoven

The only qualification anyone needs is to be a critical thinker as opposed to being gullible.

Everyone should learn to think critically - and not just with wild claims, but with everyday life. It will help you out a lot.

But yeah, especially with the wild claims.

originally posted by: amazing
... I still don't think that invalidates my theory. ...

OK, but my question would be "What validates your theory?"

Sure -- wild speculation is fun, and can even be a positive thing. Wild speculation is where some hypotheses came from that turned out the be proveable. However, speculation isn't really anything more than a fun thought game if you can't back up that speculation with some evidence.

There is nothing wrong with someone presenting a speculative hypothesis, but that person should be ready to answer questions from people who are rightfully skeptical about swallowing a wild hypothesis hook, line, and sinker, just because that hypothesis may be a "cool idea".

I just want to say that we cannot explain everything at present and we should be open-minded enough to leave those we don't understand to the future.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: amazing
... I still don't think that invalidates my theory. ...

OK, but my question would be "What validates your theory?"

Sure -- wild speculation is fun, and can even be a positive thing. Wild speculation is where some hypotheses came from that turned out the be proveable. However, speculation isn't really anything more than a fun thought game if you can't back up that speculation with some evidence.

There is nothing wrong with someone presenting a speculative hypothesis, but that person should be ready to answer questions from people who are rightfully skeptical about swallowing a wild hypothesis hook, line, and sinker, just because that hypothesis may be a "cool idea".

Point taken. Obviously, no valid evidence yet, but some intriguing anomalies that could be, but either at bad resolution or bad angle or what not. More data is the only thing that would prove that theory, of course. I think it more than wild speculation though.

More along the lines of, you either think that life in the universe is unique or sparse or all over the place and common...there are theories from leading scientists in both directions. Finding microbial life on Mars would validate the theory of common life in the Universe and give more traction to the theory that some of that life evolved into intelligent beings.

It's not that wild of a leap to speculate that if there is proof of microbial life forms on mars that there could be more, especially with the growing theory of oceans on Mars and we know what can happen with microbial life forms in water over billions of years. it happened on Earth.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying it's a valid theory and not just wild speculation. I don't have the words to summarize it into a good theory but...I'll keep looking and denying ignorance. One thing we can't have are scientists with close minds who aren't open to the possibility of evolved life on Mars.

a reply to: amazing

More along the lines of, you either think that life in the universe is unique or sparse or all over the place and common...there are theories from leading scientists in both directions. Finding microbial life on Mars would validate the theory of common life in the Universe and give more traction to the theory that some of that life evolved into intelligent beings.

I think you are correct here. If life is found on Mars, it will have bigger impact than most people think. It will be a nuclear explosion of confirmation bias! Certainly will be cause to reevaluate things.

a reply to: Puppytoven

Yes. Thats it exactly. I dont get it. Explain it again please. Make sure you use as many big words as you can because that impresses people.

Sure. I'll ask it in exactly the same words I asked it last time. They're not very big.

Astyanax
Did you understand me better this time round?

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: amazing

More along the lines of, you either think that life in the universe is unique or sparse or all over the place and common...there are theories from leading scientists in both directions. Finding microbial life on Mars would validate the theory of common life in the Universe and give more traction to the theory that some of that life evolved into intelligent beings.

I think you are correct here. If life is found on Mars, it will have bigger impact than most people think. It will be a nuclear explosion of confirmation bias! Certainly will be cause to reevaluate things.

True, but with one caveat:

That Mars life would need to be shown to be different enough from Earth life that it must have had its own genesis.

If there were two distinct and separate geneses of life within the same solar system -- on worlds right next to each other -- that would in fact indicate that life is almost surely a common thing in the universe. If life started in two places separately in the same solar system, then it must be easy for life to start.

However, if that life is shown to be so similar to earth life that it may be related (i.e., the genesis only happened once, with one planet seeding the other), then that still would not be proof that life is common.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: amazing

More along the lines of, you either think that life in the universe is unique or sparse or all over the place and common...there are theories from leading scientists in both directions. Finding microbial life on Mars would validate the theory of common life in the Universe and give more traction to the theory that some of that life evolved into intelligent beings.

I think you are correct here. If life is found on Mars, it will have bigger impact than most people think. It will be a nuclear explosion of confirmation bias! Certainly will be cause to reevaluate things.

True, but with one caveat:

That Mars life would need to be shown to be different enough from Earth life that it must have had its own genesis.

If there were two distinct and separate geneses of life within the same solar system -- on worlds right next to each other -- that would in fact indicate that life is almost surely a common thing in the universe. If life started in two places separately in the same solar system, then it must be easy for life to start.

However, if that life is shown to be so similar to earth life that it may be related (i.e., the genesis only happened once, with one planet seeding the other), then that still would not be proof that life is common.

True, but then we can have the discussion of how life got from Earth to Mars or Mars to earth. And then we can have the discussion about if a meteor from earth got to Mars, where else might it have sent life, or did life start in another solar system and impact earth or mars. Again, fascinating discussions.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

However, if that life is shown to be so similar to earth life that it may be related (i.e., the genesis only happened once, with one planet seeding the other), then that still would not be proof that life is common.

True but still pretty damn cool. My general view is on the "life is rare" side and that there are no monuments on Mars. Just in case anyone thinks I'm changing teams. Not a chance.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
.... If life is found on Mars, it will have bigger impact than most people think. It will be a nuclear explosion of confirmation bias! Certainly will be cause to reevaluate things.

Absolutely agree, and I think the odds are very good that at LEAST fossils, if not CURRENT biology, will be demonstrated in the lifetimes of most readers here. And not just on Mars -- see my visionary Foreword to new book "Space Probes" that anticipates an era of planetary discovery involving exobiology on a dozen other worlds.

www.jamesoberg.com...

Proving it is the rub, and I've been involved with the Houston science team that for twenty years has been working on the Allen Hills Meteorite from Mars that appears to have exactly such fossil evidence, but subtly. Recently detectyed short-term methane surges on the surface are also very exciting.