Interesting article on Ukraine shooting down MH17

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Europe was reluctant to sanction Russia more after Crimea, and voilà MH17 and all were aboard to do so.

The immediate accusing of Russia without a shred of solid evidence should be another clue.

Yup. The west is really good at drumming up charges but they never want to discuss the geopolitical advantages these charges give them. We are all just supposed to chalk it up as "never let a good crisis go to waste" and not even consider the idea of crisis induction. That is just crazy talk.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

So if Russian media has no qualms lying for the West then surely they must have no qualms lying for their own government. Thanks for admitting what you've been told all along. Russian media is not trustworthy.

I Find it funny how the people who blame Russia and the self defence forces have fallen silent on this one me thinks the game is up personally I've thought all along it was Ukraine/USA/Europe who where the culprits but I could not rule out the self defence force's only thing is if it where the self defence force's it was an accident but it is more probable that it was Ukraine/USA/Europe in which case it was a dastardly act and an even more dastardly act to try cover it up I would like to hear the opion of someone would believes it was Russia of how they would feel/react if it turns out it was shot down air to airp: Xcalibur254

a reply to: RyleeNator

I would like to hear the opion of someone would believes it was Russia of how they would feel/react if it turns out it was shot down air to airp

And exactly what aircraft would be the one who did this, because the Russians claim it was an SU 25 although it is an aircraft that cannot reach that altitude without weapons let alone an air to air missile that could have brought the commercial jet down.

And I need to ask how those who backed good ol Vlad through this are going to feel if they are guilty of supplying the BUK, not firing it as that would be the separatists that have done that?

Well for one the su 25 was developed in the soviet union so I'm pretty sure the Russians know exactly what it can do unlike you who bases your theory on the planes capabilities of a fact sheet you read on the net I really don't think if the Russians were going to lie about the incident they would concoct a story That was not possible that type of thing works in the good old USA but not when your trying to convince the world were people like George Bush(only in America) could not represent a nation. But you've not answer my question how would you feel/react if it turns out that mh-17 was shot down by a su 25 I mean after you sue Wikipedia for false advertising

a reply to: RyleeNator

And the Su-25 was made in Russia by Sukhoi. They're the ones who posted the specs that show it would be impossible for an Su-25 to down a 777. I think I'll go with what they say over the Russian government who have a clear agenda.

Ok I totally agree with you the specs posted on the internet makes it impossible for an su 25 to down mh 17 in virtual reality but in the real world a world of actual reality it is possible( in so much as maybe the specs are not exact as I have seen statements from pilot's who have flown su25 s at that altitude for up to 30 minutes with no problems) not only possible but it is probable that mh 17 was shot down by a su 25 so I will not waste any more time with you unfortunately I can't deny your ignorance and your down right refusal to answer my question to answer your question if it turns out to be the defence force's who shot it down il will be amazed that they managed to do it considering they don't have the missle required to shot something down at that height I would also be understanding that it was an accident and the biggest crime was the cover up but this scenario is highly unlikely hopefully somebody will come on here and tell me how they will react/feel if it turns out this is a dastardly crime committed by the USA/Ukraine

a reply to: Dimithae

Sorry, but a story from TASS built up by the Russian government to clear themselves isn't even worth wiping my @$$ with.

If everyone puts down the biases and conspiracy for a second and just looks at what was going on there the answer is really simple. The separatists had been shooting down planes all the time. Ukraine's military had never shot any planes down and were watching for Russian planes coming in from the East, not at 40,000 feet from Europe. Suddenly another plane is shot down. Rebel leader writes on his confirmed social media site they shot down another Ukrainian plane. Then it turns out the plane is civilian and the social media posts are gone and the spin begins.

Usually the simple answer is the right answer. You can spin all sorts of conspiracies and faked photos and now defected Ukrainian military stories. The rebels were shooting down lots of planes and picked the wrong one. It really is that simple.

a reply to: RyleeNator

See it's not just the altitude. Nobody's arguing that a plane can't fly over its ceiling. As it goes over its ceiling its performance suffers. The Su-25's max speed is already lower than the 777's cruising speed. And that's before you start adding guns, ammo, and missiles.

It's redickolous that someone people can't even contemplate that USA/Ukraine shot it down I reckon the truth is going to be very painful when it comes out and I suppose il have to wait til then to gauge the reactions and feeling s

a reply to: RyleeNator

Why bother speculating? Where in this thread have I blamed anyone? All I've done is point out that Russia hasn't exactly been consistent in this whole matter. Their story keeps changing and certain Russian elements have put forward hoaxes as truth.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

It could fly at 7km without a problem, pull up its nose and fire Air-to-Air missiles.

I think someone wanted to bankrupt Malaysian Airlines (sarcasm)
And this someone is probably not Donbass rebels, though for sure we probably will never know.

www.dailymail.co.uk...
Previous Malaysian plane, that never was found.

I have a gut feeling that somehow those two events are linked, so there is a new version.

Pirate Donbass rebels made unimaginable navy assault on some Indonesian junkie, they stationed there BUK system , fired and hastily retreated to Donezk to wait for the next Malaysian Airplane.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Which would target the wing/engine. Which wouldn't cause a 777 to experience a mid-air breakup. Which wouldn't occur without some kind of mayday. There's no reason to think an Su-25 shot it down other than Russia's word without any proof.

an eyewitness was shown on RT yesterday, he is bit hidden because his family is still in Ukraine
his polygraphed test was held in Russia and found genuine .
he said he was presented on the Base in Ukraine where air strike was lkaunching against anti-govt fighters ,one pilot of C-25 took-off on July 17 with air to air missile and when he came back his megezine was empty and he trembling with fear ...obviously he fired that missile.
when he asked the pilot he said "plane was on wrong place"
so its cleared MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian pilot.
the source was RT tv .

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

The primary air to air missile carried on an Su-25 has a 13 pound warhead.

To put it in perspective, Korean Air 007, a Boeing 747 which is similar in size to a 777, took two missiles with 88 pound warheads, and flew for about ten minutes under total control before crashing while trying to ditch in the ocean.

Korean 902, a Boeing 707, which is smaller than a 777, was hit by a missile with about a 7 pound warhead, lost four feet of wing and an engine, and flew for at least 40 minutes and made a controlled and intact landing on a frozen lake.

a reply to: Zaphod58

If you read the interview he also states it came back without missiles, so that would mean two have been fired (that`s the max it can carry).

And another thing from the interview :

- What distance do these missiles need?

– At 3-5 kilometers they can find the target.

- And what is the speed difference between combat aircraft and the Boeing?

– No difference: the rockets have pretty good speed. Very fast rocket.

- Will catch up anyway? And height?

– It may easily at its maximum altitude – to 7 thousand meters – quite easily focus on the target.

- To reach it higher?

– Yes. The aircraft can simply lift the nose up, and can find the target with no problems and launch the rocket. The range of this missile is more than 10 kilometers.

- At what distance from the target does this rocket explodes? Does it hit the fuselage and explodes?

– Depending on the modification. Literally could when it hits the body or at a distance of 500 meters.

Source

And to put it also in perspective, here`s the old head of the Dutch Military Intelligence and Security Agency saying a fighter jet can without a doubt down a 777 with it`s weapons when asked if it was possible about the Russian claim (at 20:34)...

Source

Markin said that “as the witness may be endangered, the investigation is considering granting him state protection under a witness protection program.” He said that if “representatives of the international commission investigating the air crash are interested in establishing the truth and turn to us, we are ready to provide [them with] all available materials.”

Source

So my guess is, they make the witness also available to be interrogated by the Dutch investigators when asked.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Sorry, but a story from TASS built up by the Russian government to clear themselves isn't even worth wiping my @$$ with.

Does this make it better?
www.bbc.com...

Ukraine's military had never shot any planes down

www.bbc.com...

A Siberian Airlines plane was heading to Novosibirsk, Russia from Tel Aviv, Israel when it was shot down and crashed into the Black Sea on 4 October, 2001. All 78 passengers onboard were killed. The Ukrainian military denied its involvement at first.

However, Ukrainian officials later admitted that its military could have mistakenly shot the plane down during a training exercise, and some compensation was paid to victims's relatives.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

No one has said they can't, but contrary to Hollywood air to air missiles don't cause planes to suddenly explode.

You completely missed the point by the way. A similar sized aircraft got hit by 170 pounds of warheads and remained intact, but somehow this one gets hit by 26 pounds of warheads and instantly explodes.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

So my guess is, they make the witness also available to be interrogated by the Dutch investigators when asked.

Your guess is wrong. They have not identified this "mystery witness," and probably never will. They will claim that it is out of fear of revenge by the Ukrainian Nazis, although the Russians could easily relocate the "witness'" entire family if it they wanted to.